The Popculty Podcast

'Jessica Jones' Part 1: A.K.A. The Superhero We've Been Waiting For

• Popculty

Share episode

It's finally here: The first episode in our epic 3-part Jessica Jones debrief!!

In this first part, we'll talk about why Jessica was such a revelation in the TV landscape back in 2015 and how she has impacted culture since. Then we'll share listener stories on what the show has meant to them.

We're just getting started! Join us next week for Part 2, when we'll talk queer subtext, David Tennant as Kilgrave, and season two!

Don't miss out on the bonus episode! Support the show for just $2 a month and get Part 4 of this series, exclusively for patrons! (Trust me, you'll want it by the time you finish that series finale...)

TRIGGER WARNINGS FOR THIS EPISODE: Mentions of sexual assault; discussion of alcoholism and child abuse. If you need someone to talk to about anything brought up in this episode, please call 800-656-HOPE or visit rainn.org.

References:


Credits:
Jessica Jones main title written by Sean Callery; cover performed by L'Orchestra Cinematique. Check out more of their awesome covers on Youtube and their album Geek Tunes.
All series clips property of Marvel and ABC Studios.
Logo by Max Badger.

Follow Popculty on Tumblr, Twitter, and Instagram for all the news and commentary on the underrepresented pop culture you care about!

Support the show

Follow Popculty on Tumblr, Twitter and Instagram, and watch video episodes on our brand-new Youtube channel!

SJ:

Welcome back to the Popculty Podcast, where we highlight all things female and diverse in pop culture. And this week is finally the week: the much-awaited, long-anticipated, painstakingly and lovingly put-together Jessica Jones debrief. I am so excited to finally bring this conversation to you all and to share the stories that we've gotten from listeners, to talk about all the things that we could possibly cram into these next few hours. And honestly, I could have made this a 10-part episode and still had a million things to talk about. There is just that much going on in this show. We did our damnedest to cover it all and do justice to one of the best shows of the decade. Stay with us- It's going to be a ride.

music:

['Jessica Jones' theme music plays]

SJ:

Marvel's Jessica Jones debuted November 20th, 2015. It was the second series in the Marvel Netflix Universe, or MNU as some of us like to call it, after Daredevil and preceding Luke Cage and Iron Fist. Those four shows then came together in a crossover called The Defenders. The show is based on the Alias comics by Brian Michael Bendis from 2001, and it marked a steep departure from other Marvel fare. In fact, Marvel had to create an R-rated subdivision called MAX just to roll out Alias, because it was dealing with such heavy themes(and because she really likes to swear). Created by Melissa Rosenberg, the first season of the TV series adapts the broad strokes of the comic, following a super-powered private investigator, Jessica Jones, played by Krysten Ritter, after the events of the first Avengers movie. The cultural impact of Jessica Jones can't be understated. She was basically the first female superhero who had any real mainstream success and staying power in the 21st century. She paved the way for Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, Black Widow, and now all these Disney+ shows that have been announced- Ms. Marvel, Hawkeye, She-Hulk. Jessica Jones broke that glass ceiling and showed the studios that people were actually interested in seeing female superheroes like this. And it was the first in so many other ways. It was part of the beginning stages of the#MeToo Movement; it introduced the first queer characters in the Marvel universe, and still to this day the first openly gay characters; it introduced us to Luke Cage, one of the first black superheroes on screen, who got his own series two years before the massive hit that was Black Panther. It was also one of the first shows to be created, show-run, and mostly written and directed by women. To my knowledge, Jessica Jones season two and Queen Sugar are the only two shows on TV to be completely directed by women. All of these things, we can look back to at this exact point in time, when this show debuted, and witness a sea change in the media that came after and in the cultural conversations that it sparked. Ever since the show debuted back in 2015 I have been wanting to do something like this- Have these conversations, come together to share our experiences of the show, our thoughts about the characters and representation, celebrating the things we love and critiquing the things that maybe could be a little bit better. Because no show is perfect, not even my beloved Jessica Jones(although it comes damn close). This is my favorite show in recent memory. I just remember being absolutely gobsmacked the first time I sat down and watched all of season one in one sitting. It was unlike anything I had ever seen before, and even though it has inspired a lot of other things- better representation of complex female characters, more female superheroes- nothing has ever quite compared to Jessica Jones. She's kind of the O.G. And this show tackled things that other shows are still too afraid to tackle. A bit of a refresher on Jessica's backstory, going into season one: When Jessica was 13 years old, her family died in a car accident, which also gave her powers like super strength and*technically* the ability to fly(even though she hasn't really mastered it and it's more like"guided falling," as she says). Basically, she can jump real high, she can punch people through walls, and she can heal a little bit faster than normal humans, but she's not invincible. After the accident, she was adopted by the Walkers- Trish Walker, AKA" Patsy," a young starlet, and her manipulative and abusive mother, Dorothy. Jessica grew up with the Walkers, she and Trish became best friends, she protected Trish from her mother's violent outbursts... Trish dealt with her own traumas- addiction, predators within the industry- and Jessica tried to put her powers to use briefly, helping the helpless. That kind of backfired though, because it put her on the radar of a man named Kilgrave, who has the ability to mind-control people and make them do whatever he tells them to do. He kidnapped Jessica and held her for months against her will, mind-controlling her to fall in love with him, to kill people, to do whatever he wanted. She finally broke free of him and returned to her life, but she has severe PTSD, he haunts her, and she's a serious alcoholic, just trying to make it through the day. And now, at the beginning of season one, Kilgrave is back and she has to figure out how to deal with him, once and for all. Now, if you're listening to this, I'm assuming you've watched the show. At least you should have, because we're going to be spoiling the hell out of everything, especially in the last episode. We are going to be breaking down the finale in great detail, and it's going to have a way better impact if you have a point of reference for that. So I definitely encourage you to watch the show in its entirety- all three seasons- before you join us for this. But if you have no intention of ever watching the show, because it's just not your cup of tea, that's totally fine. I still appreciate you being here and listening to what we have to say, and maybe it'll inspire you to check out the show. Either way, I do want to say, we will be talking in this episode about mostly the first season of the show, which viewers will know deals heavily with sexual assault, as Jessica is a survivor herself. So trigger warning for general discussion of sexual assault, alcoholism, and child abuse. We're not going to get into super graphic detail with anything by all means, but it is a major theme of the show and we're probably going to be talking about it in some capacity in every episode. So just be aware of that. And if you are a survivor yourself listening to this and you're triggered by anything here, I really encourage you to call RAINN at(806) 565-HOPE, or you can go to RAINN.org and chat with someone if you're not comfortable talking on the phone. That stands for the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. They're a nonprofit organization that supports survivors. So I just want people to be aware that there are resources out there. If you are someone who has dealt with any of the things that Jessica has, help is available, and other people who have been through it exist. And that's one reason why the show means so much to us and why we're talking about it here. For these episodes, I really wanted to talk to someone who's as big of a Jessica Jones fan as I am and who also has a background or a perspective that complements mine as well as challenging it or adding something to it. And I was super lucky to get back in touch with an old friend of mine, Bethany, who lives in Philadelphia. She is currently working on her PhD in sociology, focusing on gender and sexuality. She's interested in feminist theory and social inequalities as they relate to intersections of gender, class, and race. Her current research examines reproductive inequalities in U.S. legislation on abortion, how different populations are targeted and affected by laws and how they relate to the larger processes of sexism, classism, and racism. She's also involved with local union activities at the university, fighting that good fight for fair working conditions and freedom from the oppressive capitalist model that is modern day higher education. Basically, she's a boss and the perfect person to talk to about Jessica Jones.

SJ (to Bethany):

I'm so glad that I discovered you are as much of a Jessica Jones fan as I am!

Bethany:

I know! Well, thank you, really, for letting me do this with you. I feel honored that this is a show that means so much to you that you would want to talk to me about it.

SJ:

Aww, for sure! You and I had a very similar experience of the show, but it's so nice to just be able to commiserate with someone else about some of the things that were going on, and to also have some of my feelings be validated because one of the real problems with this new binge culture that we find ourselves in is, no one experiences entertainment communally anymore. You know what I mean? Everyone's off watching a different episode...

Bethany:

Yeah, that's a good point.

SJ:

And I really just wanted to just catch up with everyone and be like,"Can we all just sit down and have a conversation? And be coming from the same place at the same time?" Because I just feel like, between the lack of promotion for the show and the way things really fell apart with the Marvel Netflix shows towards the end, people are all over the place in their experience. And maybe now that it's been a few months since the show ended, people have finally caught up, and I'm hoping that this is a good time to take a breather and just reflect on the entire series.

SJ (to listener):

I had so much fun talking to Bethany about this, and she was such a champ. She put up with so many phone calls and messages from me. She was so helpful in helping me to articulate these things that I feel like I have been trying to say for years, really, since the show debuted. We spoke for almost seven hours total over the course of three months. So that two-part Jessica Jones conversation I promised y'all? Yeah, that's become a three-part and a bonus episode. So stay tuned for the next two parts of this conversation that are to come in the next few weeks. And then if you want the bonus episode- which I promise you do- that will be available for patrons of the show. So now's the time to head on over to our newly-launched Patreon page, help a girl out, celebrate the season of giving, and get yourself that Jessica Jones bonus episode. If you even sign up to give$1 a month to the show, you will always get bonus episodes, including this first one. I kept that bar super low because I want as many people as possible to enjoy those bonus episodes, because I know how much work I put into them, okay? All right! Without further ado, here is part one of our Jessica Jones debrief.

SJ (to Bethany):

Well, thank you so much for agreeing to do this with me. I've been wanting to do this for a really long time because as you know, it's a show that's very near and dear to my heart. You can see, I've got my Defender's t-shirt on, with Iron Fist crossed out.

Bethany:

Oh, yeah![laughs].

SJ:

I'm, like, so ready for this- Let's do it.

Bethany:

That's great. Yeah, well thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here too.

SJ:

Awesome. So tell me, how did you come across Jessica Jones?

Bethany:

Jessica Jones was advertised to me[laughs] on Netflix, because I started watching Daredevil originally. Which was, I guess, a superhero I'm a little bit more familiar with. I mean, I love the Marvel- and DC, for that matter- whole comic book/superhero universe. As a kid I loved X-Men, and as an adult, I still think the idea of having super-powers, but still being a relatively normal person in other ways, is like the coolest thing. So I watched Daredevil, and then Jessica Jones sort of immediately followed that release. And I was so into the idea of this young, kind of badass woman doing her thing. And it wasn't fancy- I've always been more attracted to these dark characters who are not your classic good-guy superhero. So I was there for it. But I honestly had not heard much about Jessica Jones before the show got big and people started talking about it everywhere.

SJ:

Okay, so you weren't familiar with the Jessica Jones Alias comics then?

Bethany:

No.

SJ:

Yeah, well me neither, I mean, until I started seeing[the show] advertised, and I was like,"What is this show?? It looks amazing." And the more research I did then, I found that it's actually based on a comic. So I was like,"Well, I have to read everything." So I did, in preparation. But yeah, same- Even from the trailers, it was apparent that this was going to be a superhero that was unlike any other that we had ever seen, especially in the Marvel world. Like you said, she's so much darker. She's very flawed and damaged. Like in Daredevil, these characters struggle with more human problems, instead of fighting aliens from other planets and that sort of thing. They're more focused on protecting their neighborhood, protecting their family, and dealing with their own traumas, in Jessica's case. So I really liked that, and I was a fan of Daredevil before as well. And also at this point in time, we hadn't had any female superheroes, really. This was 2015, so this was well before Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, Black Widow- all these other movies that are just now starting to come out. I want to say Supergirl had just debuted the month before Jessica Jones, so they really kind of came out at the same time. We have to think back several years to the status of things in the superhero world at that time.

ding:

[indicates side-bar]

SJ:

I wrote a primer for my blog of the history of female superheroes in media at this point in time, back in 2015. I'll link it in the show notes so people can check that out. But cliff-notes: there were almost no female superheroes in mainstream pop culture, and there were no female superheroes on TV, with the exception of Skye/Daisy Johnson/Quake on Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Who is a great character played by an actress of color, and we should not have Quake eraser by any means- But she is on this ensemble show led by a white man. So Jessica Jones was like*mind explosion*. She was really the first to be the title character of her own show. It was a big deal.

ding:

[side-bar over]

SJ:

We're being very much inundated right now, but it was not like that even four or five years ago. So personally, I was like,"Holy crap, we're finally getting a female superhero!" And not just that, but she's the opposite of Supergirl in a lot of ways- she's very gritty and realistic, and an alcoholic...So yeah, I hear you. It was just this realistic representation of a woman that we had never seen before.

Bethany:

I think Catwoman has had some good representation. I think there's been some successful portrayals of Catwoman... There's been some bad ones too. And then, you know, there was the major Elektra flop.

SJ:

Yeah.

Bethany:

But yeah, other than that, we didn't really have a lot of female superheroes that people were really there for and were excited about.

SJ:

Which is really a shame, because Elektra's an awesome character, so that was really disappointing. Obviously the Catwoman movie is... a mess.[laughs] Totally bonkers- it's directed by a guy with one name. It's a total bizarre movie. Yeah,[at that point in time], every time we'd had any sort of female superhero on the big screen or on TV, it hadn't really gone that well. It was either poor quality, or people just didn't respond to it, for whatever reason. And I think Jessica Jones- and Supergirl- they both have had really positive, strong viewer reactions. And I think it's both a testament to the quality of both those pieces of media, but it's also the timing. I think maybe we, as a society, were ready for these iterations. Do you think if Jessica Jones had come along either earlier or later, that we would have reacted to it the same way?

Bethany:

So no, I don't actually. I mean, if Jessica Jones had come around earlier, I don't think there would have been the same appreciation for her. Or maybe she would have been the catalyst for things that already happened then that led to her creation. If she came later, I think it would have just been seen as"riding the wave." To me, her representation on Netflix was itself a product of things that were already happening socially, that led to the need for that. And I just have to say, since we're on the topic of female superheroes, one of the things I love best about Jessica Jones is that she is wearing realistic superhero clothing.

SJ:

Right?

Bethany:

I can't tell you how many female superheroes I'm tired of seeing with their hair down, and they're wearing heels...Just extremely impractical kicking-ass attire.

SJ:

Oh my god, yes. And I think part of that is the fact that she's, at best, a reluctant superhero, which has a lot to do with how she presents herself- the way she acts, the way she interacts with people, the way she dresses. I mean, she just doesn't give a shit. Her pants are literally the same ripped jeans in the entirety of the show! The only change in her wardrobe is that her pants have more holes in them by the end of season three.

Bethany:

[laughs] Right.

SJ:

It's always ripped jeans, a tank top, leather jacket, and her boots- That's her superhero costume. So it's functional, it's realistic, and she obviously doesn't put a lot of thought into what she wears because she just doesn't care, which says so much about her as a person. One of the many think-pieces written in the wake of this show pointed out that it's not just her superhero costume, it's also her armor, her form of protection to keep people at bay. This look that says,"I don't give a shit. Stay the hell away from me."

Bethany:

I think it's consistent with her character too, because so much about her look is very utilitarian and just practical for her. She wakes up and throws on the same things that she always wears, that are on the floor or whatever, and then she goes about her day. It wouldn't be consistent with her character to be, like, getting ready and...

SJ:

Putting on makeup, wearing heels. It's just not her. Usually she's sleeping off a hangover and then promptly getting drunk again, you know? Bustle said in their initial review of the show,"Jessica is one part Veronica Mars, two parts salty old P. I. from an 80s movie, and ten parts someone who wouldn't give a shit about anything I just said. She's not exactly what I would call a'nice person', but she's a person that I'm ready to give up fourteen straight hours of my life and all the sunlight that normally comes with it for. At one point she threatens a pipsqueak with the line,'You turn that thing on and I'll pull your underwear through your eye,' and my heart soared. This is the female superhero we've been waiting for." I'm just like,"Yep, same!"

Bethany:

I actually just went back and watched that clip today. That was one of those lines that got me hooked on the character right from the beginning. You know, it was just the attitude. It was the general vibe of the character. There's something that's really fun about it, it's empowering, it's a little bit vindictive...

SJ:

Totally. This is a show that is very dark, it tackles very real issues that are very serious. But it does it in a way that it's not painful to watch. It's actually really fun to watch. Even when she's dealing with Kilgrave and her past trauma, she has this way- and it's the character, but it's also the performance by Krysten Ritter. She's so snarky about everything and she has these great one-liners.

Jessica:

You shoot at me, I'll pull the bullet out of my ruined jacket and shove it up your ass with my pinky finger, and who do you think that's going to hurt more? Self-respect: Get some!

SJ:

It keeps the show from being too preachy or too heavy. And it's this perfect balance that I think is really hard to strike when you're trying to talk about these serious issues in a long-running show like this, because that can get pretty intense over a long stretch of time. I mean, I was grateful for the season breaks for sure, because after every finale I was like,"I need to process this." But I never felt like I was being sucked into this black hole that was Jessica's life or anything.

Bethany:

Yeah. One of the things I loved most, just in terms of production value, was that it still delivers on the kind of campy comic book thing that you expect, right? These one-liners, this energy...Some of it's kind of funny, maybe a little bit even absurd. And it is still kind of fantastical- there's this supernatural element to it, right? They have powers, this isn't a world that we really live in. But at the same time, this did actually feel more rooted in the real world than some comic book things do. It didn't feel as blockbustery, which was very refreshing. I thought that it balanced that line between delivering on what we love about comic books but also not having it be this crazy-action, fun movie that we usually see in theaters or something. I love that.

SJ:

It just had everything I was looking for, you know? Female superhero, but also just a main character who's this scrappy mess of a woman, kind of an asshole, but also really funny. And then it's also about female friendship, which is something that's very near and dear to my heart, and I'm always on the lookout for decent representations of because it's so often overlooked or mischaracterized. It was something that I'm not quite sure that we'll ever see anything like again, honestly. Even in the years since it's debuted, there's been a lot of attempt to imitate what Jessica Jones does. It's been interesting to see how it's influenced other characters in the MCU and also just TV in general.

Bethany:

Yeah. I think Jessica Jones is a character that people want to be like, as much as she kind of glorifies some really not-so-great human qualities. There's something kind of empowering about a lot of the things that she does embody, at least for me. Like, I remember thinking,"Oh, I want to be meaner. And I want to be stronger. And I want to be able to drink more whiskey!"

SJ:

Right? Gotta build up my tolerance! I know, it's kind of a weird thing to see her as a hero, but a lot of people felt that way. I mean, if you go on Tumblr, people are just like,"Jessica Jones is my everything. I just want to be like her," even though we all know that's kind of problematic- you know, please take care of yourself. But yeah, there's something that really has resonated with people just because she's so human.

Bethany:

And I think even more than human too. Like, to see a woman be that openly angry, and that aggressive, physically violent... I don't think she glorifies physical violence, which I was really happy to see actually because I do think that superhero movies are very flippant about portrayals of violence. I don't think she's like that at all, but we don't see outward expressions of contempt and anger from women that often. And for me, that was something that I personally loved.

SJ:

Definitely. I am also really fascinated with the"angry woman" on TV right now, because that's something that's very new. Women have not been allowed to be angry, in society or in media, for a very long time. And that's changing now, because we(women especially) are at this cultural, societal, full-on rage-boil. And that's seeping into our media, and I think Jessica is very much a representative of that. But I also think Trish represents that also, in a slightly different, kind of parallel way. So when we get into season three, I would like to talk more about that, because I think the dichotomy that the show sets up between two different versions of female rage being expressed, and which one we are supposed to root for, is super interesting. So we'll definitely get back to that, because that's something that I really, really feel strongly about.

Bethany:

That sounds great.

SJ:

The other thing that really resonated with so many people when this show first debuted is the fact that it's talking about some really real issues: PTSD, rape/sexual assault, addiction, abuse...I mean, it's tackling a lot of things, and it's doing it very well. I kind of knew that the show was going to be awesome, just based off the things I was hearing and the promos. It looked like it was gonna be great, and then when it actually debuted and I binged the whole thing, thirteen hours straight in one night, I was like,"Holy shit, this actually was as good as I thought it was going to be." And I wasn't the only one- Within 24 hours of that show dropping, you saw people take to the internet to write these really thoughtful, personal essays and think-pieces about what the show meant to them. Women were coming out of the woodwork to say,"Me too," before there was even a#MeToo Movement. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this was very much a part of the beginning stages of the#MeToo Movement, because women were feeling like they could finally have a place to talk about these things, and I think the show allowed us to do that.

Bethany:

I think all of these media things really led to part of the shared culture of the#MeToo Movement happening, because they were all signifiers that these were topics we were going to start talking about more publicly, that people wanted to bring into the public eye. Yeah, absolutely. So I was like you, I watched it in probably like a weekend or maybe a week or something. I watched it very, very quickly, and the reaction was just enormous. And that was maybe a year before the#MeToo thing really picked up.

SJ:

Yeah, it was right around the 2016 election, all that stuff happening, and then the Weinstein thing came out... So yeah, it was really in just the year or so before that really took off. But it was just incredible to see all these people coming forward with their stories. And honestly, I shouldn't gender it, I shouldn't say it was just women coming forward, because it wasn't. In fact, the article I read that stuck with me the most was called"How Jessica Jones Saved My Life." And it was written by a man, Reuben Hayslett, who had his own version of Kilgrave and was writing about how this show was the first time he had ever seen his story reflected back to him in a way that he could process his experience. So when I say women coming forward to talk about their experiences- yes, it's mostly been women I've seen, but not exclusively. Let's not forget that sexual assault and domestic abuse knows no gender. So just to see the way that she's empowered people to start having these conversations has been so incredible, and a huge reason that the show means so much to me. So, touching base on the other characters in the show and the other things that are going on: This was also the first queer representation in the Marvel universe. There had never been any openly gay characters, and here we have Jeri Hogarth, openly gay, and in not one but two lesbian relationships. So all of a sudden, we have all these queer characters. And the show continues to bring in side characters that are queer, and it's all part of creating this world that looks more like the world we actually live in and not just this heteronormative hellscape[laughs] that the other MCU things do. So that was a big step. And well, I appreciate Jeri Hogarth for a number of reasons. I think you do too, right?

Bethany:

I do.

SJ:

I love to hate her.

Bethany:

Yeah, I feel the same way. I love to hate her. One of the reasons I actually like her portrayal is because she's frankly kind of a terrible person. She's selfish, she's ruthless. She's kind of predatory, honestly. So we get this great representation of another really strong female character who's smart as hell, but then she's also just really immoral. She's sort of like a side-villain that runs through the whole series. You're constantly wondering,"Wait, do I like her? Is she changing? Is she not?"

SJ:

She's one of the most interesting characters to watch for me on the show because you never quite know whether she's going to learn and grow from her mistakes. You're always kind of hoping, but she just keeps disappointing you. When you think she can't sink any lower, she gets a shovel and goes deeper.

Bethany:

[laughs] Yeah.

SJ:

There's a long history of queer characters, especially queer women, in media being the villains, being demonized. And she could have fallen into that trap, but the show never gets close to that because first of all, she's not one thing. She's not just evil. And she does have moments where she shows some humanity and she has some semblance of a moral code. And then like I said, there are many other queer characters throughout the show who are all complex and exist on varying places on the morality spectrum. So I love that it's not,"They gave us this one queer character and oh, of course she's the villain." Honestly, when you think about all the characters that exist in this show, every single one of them is morally complex. None of them are all hero or all villain. Every one of them is so nuanced and complicated: Jessica, Jeri, Trish, even Malcolm. That's another thing that I really love, because we don't get characters that are that richly developed and that nuanced, especially female characters.

Bethany:

Yeah. Actually some of the characters who, to me, were the most shallow ended up being some of the male characters. Which, in a good show, any shallow character is a disappointment, but I wasn't totally hating that it was the male characters(here).

SJ:

Did you see that tweet that went viral? This guy said,"Me watching Jessica Jones: WTF? All characters are women. The men are either bad or eye cand-- Ohhhh, so that's what that feels like."

Bethany:

[laughs] Exactly.

SJ:

[laughs] I love that. It was so nice to see that the show was resonating not only with female audiences(for very obvious reasons), but men were appreciating it too. It was giving them a reference point that they've never been given before, like this sort of thing, where female characters are so few and far between and they're not fleshed out- This is the type of media that we're so used to seeing, as female viewers. So to have the shoe kind of be put on the other foot, for men to experience what that feels like, and for them to get it finally, was really amazing.

Bethany:

I think it's just become so normal now for you to watch something and the one female character- maybe the two, if you're lucky- they're just so disappointing. They're like these shells of real people. They're unrealistic. They say things and they act in ways that are inconsistent. And you can tell that they are written by someone who is nothing like that character. It's just such a disappointment. And one thing I love about Jessica Jones is that not only does it have these amazing female characters that have depth and are realistic, really complex, but the show is so popular that it didn't become classified as a"woman's show." I think that's really unique, because there are other shows with some really great female characters, but I'm not sure that there are a lot of men watching those shows.

SJ:

That is so true. I never saw it get pigeonholed as a"woman's show." Of course I've seen a few trolls be like,"That show's stupid, it sucks," whatever. And it's ALWAYS men, always...

Bethany:

[laughs] Of course.

SJ:

But for the most part, I feel like it resonated with a pretty broad audience, because it was just so different. People were thirsting for something that was outside the realm of what we normally see, not just in terms of superhero narratives, but in terms of television and entertainment in general. I think people were so ready for something this radically different.

Bethany:

I do think it helped too that it was a superhero show though--

SJ:

Oh, totally.

Bethany:

Because that is such a popular genre. It used to be...not even like a niche thing, but people would say,"Oh, you know, it's for comic book people." Or like,"nerds" or whatever. But it's just such a common thing now, right? It's a wide fan-base. Everyone loves superhero stuff- or a lot of people do. So I do think that helped, and I think it also helped that it had these connections to these other shows in the Marvel universe. But yeah, that was the one thing that for me was really unique about Jessica Jones, was to have the show be dominated and really driven forward by female characters. And to not have it be considered a"woman's show."

SJ:

Bit of a Trojan move there- Coming in as, ostensibly, a superhero show, an action show, a noir. But then, whoops, it's actually a super nuanced portrayal of female characters! And relationships between women! And a treatise on sexual assault! All these things hit you, but it's so smart to package it under the guise of just another superhero show in the Marvel Universe.

Bethany:

Yeah,[laughs] you almost wonder if they were trying to, like, trick people who may not want to watch it, had they known that they were going to get that piece of it.

SJ:

I mean...

Bethany:

I'm not upset about it!

SJ:

I'm not upset about it either! I thank Melissa Rosenberg every single day.[laughs] No, it's brilliant.

Bethany:

One thing I think was extremely successful about Jessica Jones, aside from the superhero thing, her being a badass woman, is just that she has The Cool Factor that has been such an icon in TV and film for basically forever. People love to watch these kind of epitomes of Cool. She has The Cool Factor.

SJ:

I can't tell you the number of people I saw dressed up as Jessica Jones that first year it premiered. And I'm still seeing Jessica Jones cosplay at Comic-Cons. I'm seeing pictures on social media, people dressing up as her. Yeah, she's awesome. She's a fucking badass! Like, who doesn't want to be Jessica Jones? Obviously we both do![both laugh] Let's talk about the other two main supporting characters: First there's Malcolm, speaking of the few male characters. He was someone that people were definitely really skeptical of at first because it's like,"Oh, you have the one black man character and he's a drug addict." But as the season progresses, you realize Kilgrave did this to him. He wouldn't have been an addict if Kilgrave hadn't gotten to him, basically, and he's being blackmailed. And he ends up pulling through and getting clean and helping Jessica, and he becomes a huge part of Alias Investigations. Then he really branches out into his own thing and works for Jeri, going through his own very complicated moral crisis later in season three.

Bethany:

I didn't actually care for Malcolm at the beginning for that same reason that you just said- that people saw him as this kind of token character. Just his whole onscreen thing, I was not getting, I wasn't buying it. But once you realize what was happening with Kilgrave... I don't wanna say it humanizes him, but it gives you context. And then he becomes more of a real character, and I really, really liked his arc actually, especially through the second season and into the third as well. But yeah, as he gets more complicated and becomes a more main character, I liked him better and better.

SJ:

Okay. So what are your thoughts on Trish Walker? I think you know that I really like Trish, for various reasons. And not because she's always likable, because she's definitely not. I just think she's a fascinating character, especially as we go through the seasons and we get more of her backstory, her traumas that really kind of mirror Jessica's in a lot of ways... I love watching that character progress, even though it did get a little painful in season three for sure, as we will discuss. But what do you think about Trish? Because I know that there is a very vocal subsection of the Jessica Jones fandom that really hate her, in a way that they don't hate any of the other characters.

Bethany:

I didn't know that that existed. It doesn't surprise me to hear that though. I like Trish even though she annoys me, but she annoys me for the reasons why I think she's a good character. And it's because I think she's a product of her environment. She has this abusive mom, this extremely high-pressure childhood, having to perform. She's been socialized in a very particular kind of femininity. You know, she's uptight, she's pushy, she's relentless, and there are times where I'm watching the show and, frankly, she just annoys the hell out of me! But at the same time, I like her for that because her character is extremely realistic with what we end up finding out about her history through the three seasons.

SJ:

I like the way you said that and that's a really good way to describe Trish I think, because she's not always likable, but she is one of the most believable characters I've ever seen. Especially given, as you say, with everything we come to learn about her past. I mean she's been through almost as much shit as Jessica has. Her childhood was abusive, thanks to Dorothy, and was really embroiled in that"casting couch culture" that we're hearing so much about now, especially with the#MeToo Movement and everything. That was her childhood, growing up with those predatory producers and men in the industry who took advantage of her. And her mom was no help- she basically pimped out her own daughter. Trish then becomes addicted to drugs when she's in her teens and struggles with that for a long time. I mean, she's had a rough life, and I think because she is so put-together when we first meet her in season one, she's done a lot of work to get to this point, and sometimes people forget just how many traumas of her own she's survived. And yeah, that's going to mess a person up, that's going to make them act in certain ways, that's going to make them not always the most palatable or likable character. Whenever I hear someone say they don't like Trish, it's immediately followed by,"Well, she's annoying," or in season three it's,"She's just crazy!" But I kind of take issue with both of those adjectives. They seem a little sexist to me because I don't hear fans calling any of the other characters on the show who are way worse in so many ways than Trish Walker... No one calls Kilgrave, the rapist, annoying or crazy, even though he's both. Something about the way that some viewers of the show attack Trish really kind of puts me off a little bit, because I just question where that's coming from, and I feel like there's a strong element of probably unconscious sexism to it. But I also ask people to think about, if your best friend was a survivor of child abuse and addiction and sexual assault, would you ever call them"annoying"? I mean, I know we're talking about fictional characters, but these characters have lived through things that many people in the real world have lived through, so I feel like they deserve some measure of sympathy on our part. And the haters are always more vocal, but I know there's also a lot of people out there who sympathize or empathize with Trish and see their own struggles reflected in her. As someone who also had an abusive person in her childhood, I can tell you that navigating what kind of relationship I now want with this person, if any at all, now that they have supposedly changed has been one of the most difficult things I've had to do in my adult life. And watching Trish navigate that relationship with Dorothy, her former abuser who is now somewhat reformed, trying to do some good, but still inherently the person she always was... I see that and I feel it.

Trish:

What are you doing here, mother?

Dorothy:

I was worried. You've never missed a show, so when Trish Talk got preempted this morning--

Trish:

You listen to my show?

Dorothy:

Well, of course. I'm afraid I berated your station manager into telling me where you were.

Trish:

You're good at verbal abuse.

Dorothy:

The nurse told me you took something.

Trish:

I'm fine.

Dorothy:

[skeptically] Hmm.

Trish:

I didn't relapse. I'm fine.

Dorothy:

That's good. You know, I would listen to Trish Talk even if you weren't my daughter. You're so smart and incisive--

Trish:

I don't need your approval, mother.

Dorothy:

Tough shit. You got it. People still look up to you. I get calls about you all the time.

Trish:

I'm not your client.

Dorothy:

As you made abundantly clear years ago to me- privately, publicly, internationally...

Trish:

I didn't want you getting your claws into another starlet.

Dorothy:

Fair enough. I was a god-awful mother back then.

Trish:

And not now?

Dorothy:

How would I know? You never gave me another shot at it.

Trish:

I'd like you to leave now.

SJ:

Trish can be very extra, but I always feel like this is just a person who is dealing in the best way she knows how. And that's again, like Jessica, just such a human, relatable character, with all her flaws and all her moments of dislikability, and her questionable choices. I have an enormous amount of sympathy for Trish, and as the show goes on and we get these flashback episodes, we get a much better understanding of why she is so dogged in everything she does. Rachael Taylor who plays Trish has talked about how especially in season one Trish's main motivating factor is that guilt of'Jessica needed me and I wasn't there for her, and now I can be, now that Kilgrave is back and I know the score, and I'm going to do everything I can to make up for last time.' We do see her go a bit overboard on that desperation to save Jessica sometimes, as we'll talk about in season two and three. The show does a great job of foreshadowing her trajectory as well. From that very first scene that they have together, Trish is pushing Jessica to be a better hero, to use her powers in the ways that Trish thinks she should use them...

Jessica:

You know what he can do. You know what he made me do.

Trish:

So you're running?

Jessica:

Yeah, I sure as hell am. If he gets ahold of me again?

Trish:

If you leave that girl with him--

Jessica:

What would you have me do? What exactly should I do?

Trish:

We'll figure out a way to protect you.

Jessica:

We? He's coming for me, not you.

Trish:

I know!

Jessica:

You don't.

Trish:

I know one thing: You are far better-equipped to deal with that animal than some innocent girl from Omaha. You're still the person who tried to do something.

Jessica:

Tried and failed. That's what started this. I was never the hero that you wanted me to be.

Trish:

I'll get your money.[fading footsteps]

SJ:

We see this resentment and almost jealousy progress in these incremental ways over the course of the series. Anyways, so I just have a lot of sympathy for Trish and I find her really fascinating to watch, especially in the end when a lot of people are like,"Oh, she's really gone off the deep end." But to me, it just actually feels like a very organic, natural evolution for this character.

Bethany:

Yeah, I completely agree with that. And I know we both have feelings about the finale, so I'm just gonna pretend that that's not in my next statement, but yeah, her trajectory as a character felt completely natural to me. And I found that some of what was most annoying about her character sometimes was the juxtaposition of it being a barrier for Jessica's character. Because you want to root for Jessica Jones as your primary character in the show, right? Like, you're on her side, you're rooting for her, and Trish is someone who sometimes gets in her way or makes things more difficult for Jessica. And it's built into the show itself- You're supposed to be annoyed by any character who does that. And it's not just Trish, it's Malcolm at various points, and even Hogarth. So I think it's natural that you, at times, are like,"Trish, come on, what are you doing? You're making this worse! Jessica has this, just let her do it!" But I think it's what you said: Trish has such a strong sense of this inner moral compass and such a strong idea about how things should be done, how Jessica should be using her powers, combined with this resentment that she can't do that, and this desperation of like,"If I was the one in your situation, I would do it so differently." I think her character completely makes sense...until the very, very, very end.[laughs].

SJ:

Right. Exactly. And we will certainly get there.[laughs] Lots of thoughts on that. But yeah, even if you don't particularly like her or the direction that she goes, I think it makes sense for her. And she's a really good foil to Jessica in a lot of ways because of that. The two just see things very differently. Jessica's like,"I just want to get through the day. I didn't ask for these powers." And Trish is like,"Come on! You're a superhero! If I had your powers, I would be saving the world!" And I think that's really relatable. I mean, I'd probably feel the same way if my best friend was just drinking their powers away. I get where she's coming from. Another thing that I really love about the show and have loved since the very beginning, is the way that it sets up their relationship as really the heart of the show. Even the villains every season are strategically used in order to really get at the main theme, which is this dynamic between Jessica and Trish. I love the seasonal progression of their relationship- In season one, it's very much reconnecting after this period of Jessica pushing Trish away to protect her, in season two we have Jessica's mother as the antagonist, which introduces a biological-family-versus-chosen-family dynamic, and Jessica is kind of forced to choose between the two... So if you look at every single season, when you boil it down, it's about the two of them. And I really love that, because shows about female friendship...I mean, movies are hardly able to pass the Bechdel Test, and this show not only passes the Bechdel Test in almost every scene, it raises the bar.

Bethany:

Yeah, their particular relationship as adoptive sisters is interesting too because I think it allows more people to identify with their relationship. Because you can see it as they're sisters, or you can see it as they're best friends from childhood, which almost makes it even more dynamic because they do toe this weird line between chosen family and given family. I didn't expect the whole arc with their relationship the way that it ended up happening through the second and the third season, just with the first season as a standalone. I almost felt like Trish in that first season is like this...I don't want to call her a sidekick, but she is in this supportive role. And then she became much more central into the second and third season as the juxtaposition for Jessica Jones, as the kind of reflection of morality, right? Where they have these different understandings of justice, morality, they have different motivations.

SJ:

Totally. They're such different characters that it creates this really rich, fraught dynamic that is always unfolding and constantly surprising you and so engaging to watch as a viewer. There's a lot of butting heads and having different ideas about how to do things and all that, which is just good drama, right? But then because they're so different, they also complement each other really well in terms of their skills, their methods, their fighting styles, so that when they do team up a little bit in season one, more in season two, and then quite a bit in season three, it's so fun to watch them work so well together. Honestly, their relationship is unlike any other I've ever seen on TV. They will always be, for me, kind of the pinnacle of human interaction between two fictional characters. It just doesn't get more complicated and emotionally genuine than this.

Trish:

I won't let you go to prison, you're not a murderer.

Jessica:

Yes, I am.

Trish:

You're still punishing yourself for that woman's death.

Jessica:

And now more people are dead- Hope Schlottman's parents, Reuben, Riva- and someone has to give their families closure. And until the real killer shows up, that's going to be me. I have to pay.

Trish:

There are so many ways this could go wrong.

Jessica:

There's one way it'll go right. No one else will die because of me. I'm taking myself out of the equation.[long pause] I'm still not the hero that you wanted me to be.

Trish:

[quietly] You're exactly the hero I wanted you to be.

SJ:

We're going to pause our discussion there for now. We'll pick up again next time talking more about that relationship between Jessica and Trish, whether there are some queer undertones to that. Then we'll get into David Tennant's performance as Kilgrave and how the show deals with sexual assault. And don't worry, we will also be discussing that epic season one finale- the neck-snap heard'round the world. That's all still to come. Join us next time. I'd like to end the episode by hearing from some listeners on what the show has meant to them. Hannah from Salt Lake City writes,"I love this series so much. Finally, a woman in the traditional male role. I felt for her as a woman and as a superhero." Hannah really appreciated the first season's storyline in particular. She says,"the twist of the abusive boyfriend- all he's done for her and she's so'ungrateful'! I think this storyline resonates with a lot of women who have had trouble shaking their abusive ex-boyfriends. And the guilt Jessica feels when she sees Hope has been taken hostage by Kilgrave is symbolic of many women's experiences when one sees her ex with another girl." That is so true, and I think that's a big part of why Jessica feels so compelled to rescue Hope. She sees herself in Hope, but she also knows what Kilgrave is capable of and she doesn't want him to do what he did to her to another girl. Wayne from Chicago wrote in. He says,"I didn't come into Jessica Jones with much expectation other than it would be a relatively high-quality serial drama, and it didn't disappoint. Some specific aspects of the show that resonated with me include the portrayal of substance abuse and the kind of disoriented downward spiral that can lead a person on. More than once, I had difficulty watching Jessica drink all that liquor- like a physical aversion to watching it. I really felt this part on two levels: First, I grew up in a family with a variety of addiction issues and second, I feel my own predisposition for substance abuse when it comes to weed." Yeah, this is a big one. I have heard from several viewers of the show who have battled their own addiction issues, especially alcoholism, say that it is really difficult sometimes to watch Jessica drink so much. I've never struggled with addiction personally, but even for me, watching Jessica just drink constantly, and knowing what it's doing to her body and knowing where that need to drink is coming from... sometimes it is a little overwhelming. There's this scene in season two where Jessica dreams she wakes up in a bed with an IV in her arm. And she follows the IV line with her eyes up, up to where the IV bag would be, but instead of an IV bag, it's an upside-down bottle of whiskey. That was such a powerful visual for the way she feels about her own alcoholism, and I think probably the way a lot of people feel about their own addiction. Wayne also brings up Jessica and her relationship to family- being adopted at a young age, feeling like an outsider and growing up in an abusive household. Absolutely. I think a lot of viewers who are adopted can probably relate to Jessica's experience of coming into this new family, feeling like an outsider, and then on top of that there's abuse going on in the household. I think for anyone watching the show who has their own experience of childhood abuse, there is a very satisfying element of wish fulfillment in watching this character, Jessica, who is super-powered, be able to stand up to her and Trish's tormentor, Dorothy. She can throw her across the room and that's that- It never happens again. When you're a kid and you're in a violent situation, you often think,"if I just was stronger than the other person, they would never mess with me again. This would never happen again." You're constantly wishing that you were strong enough to defend yourself or intimidate the other person, so it is really satisfying to see Jessica just straight-up put a stop to Dorothy's abuse. Wayne writes that his favorite aspect of the series is how the relationships between the characters transformed over time. That was one of the things that I also found most enjoyable too. In our next couple episodes, we're going to get into those evolving dynamics, especially the one between Jessica and Trish, whether you see that as an adoptive sibling relationship or a best friendship or something more, it sort of exists on all of these different levels. And however you see it, it goes through this transformation over the course of the three seasons. We're going to be getting into that a lot, especially in our last episode. Thanks so much, Wayne, for writing in with your experiences and addressing these aspects of the show that resonate with a whole lot of people. Another listener called in with her thoughts. As a social worker, she was really interested in the mental health representation of the show. Let's hear from her.

Megan:

Hey, Popculty Podcast! This is Megan here from Colorado, and I wanted to call in with some thoughts on Jessica Jones and mental health representation in pop culture. So, full disclosure: when Jessica Jones first came out, I had a hard time getting into it. The reason being I had my own personal experience with sexual assault, and it was too close and personal with the portrayal of her relationship with the Purple Man, AKA David Tennant's character Kilgrave. And so I had a hard time watching it at first. But as I watched more of the show, I was also in my Master's program in social work at the time and some things really struck me about mental health in the series. So a couple of really important takeaways, but first let me talk a little bit about context of this issue. So mental health portrayal in pop culture has been pretty bad for a pretty long time. I could list a lot of problematic examples, but just a few are To the Bone, 13 Reasons Why, even critically-acclaimed films like A Beautiful Mind have problematic portrayals of mental health. So you get the picture, but why are these portrayals innaccurate and wrong? Couple of points: 1) Oftentimes, people with mental illnesses are portrayed as violent, but usually people with mental illnesses are actually more prone to be victims of violence than to be the perpetrators of violence. 2) They're also depicted as different or are othered by their appearance. 3) All mental health issues are portrayed with the same level of severity, and spoiler alert: they're all portrayed as very, very severe. 4) People with mental illnesses are shown to never recover. 5) Mental hospitals are depicted as evil places where people are tortured and hung out to dry...It's not a good time. And 6) therapists are often portrayed as a joke, and the person afflicted should try to overcome their mental illness on their own- Kind of a"pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach. So as this podcast and everyone in their right mind acknowledges, representation matters. So when we're showing these depictions of mental health in our pop culture, we're setting a very biased, heavily stereotyped and factually innaccurate depiction of what mental health really looks like. And guys, mental health in our country right now isn't looking so great. Suicide rates are on the rise, school shootings/mass shootings... We don't have the best track record of mental health here in the US. So what does Jessica Jones do that other shows don't? Like, why do I care about this show specifically? What does it bring to the table? One: they not only show what trauma looks and feels like, which I feel is a very good depiction of trauma, but they also show the recovery process. This is crucial because recovery is possible and people need to know that. An example of this can be seen in how Jessica copes: she uses the mantra from her therapist and also goes to the support group for Kilgrave victims. And that's something that is also formed out of the show- the support group- that's really interesting and cool to see that organically occur too. Two: they also show the very real problem of co-occurring mental illness and substance use disorders to deal with trauma. Jessica drinks a lot, and guess what? According to the National Institute of Mental Health, almost half of the population that has mental illness also has a substance disorder. Yet most of the time in pop culture we don't really focus on these two interlinked problems. Three: even though she has superhuman strength, she is a victim and identifies with the others who have been controlled by Kilgrave as well. This humanizes our heroine in a very real way and makes mental health problems accessible to all, not a product of being"too weak to deal with it." Four: Kilgrave himself is the perfect metaphor of mental illness- having people act out of their character and waking to wonder if it was their fault or an issue that was intrinsically within themselves the whole time. Sounds sneakily like victim-blaming to me, which this show also had the gall to tackle. Number five: casting the role of Kilgrave with David Tennant was a stroke of genius. I actually got to see him speak at a Comic-Con here in Denver and the man is incredibly charming, witty, and talented, and casting someone like him to play Kilgrave is a phenomenal choice, because oftentimes people want to believe abusers are these horrible humans, and can't understand how people(mostly women) can't seem to break free from these"monsters." Well, most perpetrators come across as normal people, often charismatic and charming. Kilgrave is no exception to this rule and the show does an excellent job at teasing this out in his interactions with Jessica when she confronts him about raping her, using mind control, etc. In conclusion, Jessica Jones is the badass lady superhero we need in the forefront of mental health representation. I'm really impressed with how the show tackled such difficult topics. Thanks, guys, for letting me chat with you about mental health and Jessica Jones!

SJ:

Thank you, Megan, for sharing your experience of the show and exploring a little bit deeper something that Bethany and I mentioned at various points in our conversation, but which absolutely deserved greater detail. I'm also really interested in the representation of mental health in pop culture, and I absolutely agree- It has a terrible track record. I mentioned in my very first episode of this podcast, the 13 Reasons Why debacle, which I won't reiterate, but it will come up again because it is just such an egregious, horrendous real-life consequence of poor mental health representation on TV. And in fact, I'm planning on having at least one or two episodes of this podcast focusing specifically on mental health representation in media, because it is so important to me and I really want to highlight the few things out there that get it really right versus the ones that get it so wrong that it's causing real-world damage. So I actually reached out to Megan and asked her if she might want to revisit this topic in another full-length episode and she was really excited to do that. She and I will get that in the works, so stay tuned for that conversation hopefully later this year. All right, that's it for now! Join us right back here next week when we'll finish out season one and dive into season two. In the meantime, if you enjoyed this episode and want to show your support for the show, there's a couple of ways you can do that: One, pull the main show page up on Apple Podcasts and scroll down to rate and review. You can give us a couple stars, which takes two seconds or you can be extra super awesome and write a little review. Tell me what you like about the show, maybe give me some constructive feedback- It's all good. Would love to hear from you. You can also scroll down a little bit further and there's a link that says"Support the show." That'll take you to our newly-created Patreon page where you can become a monthly patron of the show, which will not only show your support, it'll help me out financially to pay for the tools I need to actually produce the show. AND it'll get you all kinds of good stuff including bonus episodes, and there is going to be a Jessica Jones bonus episode. So throw me a dollar on the Pateon and that bonus episode will be yours! We've gotten four awesome patrons who I want to shout out here: My dear friend Trisha signed up at the Ms. Marvel level, which is very fitting, considering she's going to be my comics expert in an episode later this year. Thank you so much, Trisha! You know I love you, girl. And we had three donors at the$20 a month or higher level. I want to give a huge thank you to Aur and Ken, as well as a patron who preferred to remain anonymous. So I will henceforth refer to them as my"patranon", because I love a good portmanteau. If you donate at$20 a month or higher, you will get your name shouted out on every episode of the podcast, so you'll be hearing those names again as a continued thank you for their very generous support of the show. Thank you so much to you four for being my very first patrons. With your support, I am now able to cover most of the monthly operating costs for this show, so that is huge. I've been having to pay out-of-pocket for those things for a while and it was really becoming a strain, so now, thanks to your help, I don't have to do that anymore and can look into ways of improving the show. The more listeners who give and support, the better the show is going to be, in terms of frequency and production quality, so thank you so much to my patrons! Huge thanks to everyone who wrote in and called in this week- Megan, Hannah, Wayne- thank you so much for sending in your thoughts. Huge thanks also to L'Orchestra Cinematique for providing the music you heard in this episode. They very generously allowed us to use their cover of the Jessica Jones main title theme in all three of these episodes. Definitely check out their other covers on an album called Geek Tunes, which is available on Amazon. The show is produced and edited by yours truly, SJ Palm. All clips used in this episode are property of Marvel and ABC Studios and used herein under the Fair Use clause of Section 107 of the Copyright Act. Thank you, dear listeners, for joining us in this new year. We'll see you next week. And in the meantime: support women directors, stay critical, and always demand representation.

outro music:

[ plays]