The Popculty Podcast
The Popculty Podcast
'The Farewell' and Asian Representation with Theresa Shim
Lulu Wang's new film The Farewell has quickly become the indie darling of the summer, with a 99% on Rotten Tomatoes and a record-setting per-theater box office average, despite only a limited release. It stars Awkwafina as Billie, an American woman who must return home to China with the rest of her family, to say good-bye to their beloved matriarch, Nai Nai, while keeping her in the dark about her own illness. Based on "an actual lie" from Wang's own life, the film tackles family dynamics and cultural divides in a way we have seldom seen on the big screen.
I talked with writer and digital media scholar Theresa Shim about why The Farewell meant so much to her as an API immigrant, and the state of Asian representation in media.
Follow Theresa on Twitter and Tumblr, and check out her writing on Medium.
Credits:
The Farewell official trailer courtesy of A24.
The Farewell original score by Alex Weston.
Logo by Max Badger.
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What's wrong, dad? Please tell me.
Billie's mother:Nai Nai i s dying.
Billie's father:She doesn't know, so you can't say anything. The family thinks it's better not to tell her.
Billie:Why is that better?
Billie's mother:Chinese people have a saying:"When people get cancer, they die."
SJ:Welcome back to The Popculty Podcast. Thanks for joining us again. Okay, dear listeners, I may have lied to you last time. I did maybe say that we will be talking about the Emmy nominations this week. As you've probably surmised that is not the case. But you might call that a good lie, which would be very on-topic for this week, as we are discussing the wonderful new film, The Farewell. This film is directed by Lulu Wang(or Wong- both pronunciations are correct) and it stars Awkwafina. She plays Billie, who returns to China with her family under the guise of a fake wedding to stealthily say goodbye to their beloved grandmother, the only person who doesn't know that she has only a few weeks to live.
Billie:[ in Mandarin] Don't you think we should tell Nai Nai?
Billie's aunt:[ in Mandarin]. That's too painful.
Billie:What if she wants to say goodbye?
SJ:That is the premise of The Farewell. It's a wonderful film. I've seen it twice in theaters and you should too. You should go at least once. It's a family drama, but it's also funny, it has wonderful performances all across the board. I really can't recommend it enough. Now, I promised you all conversations, and conversations we will have, starting today. This is the first Culture Convo that we will have on this show, and I have kind of figured out how I think this is going to go. I would like to do these Culture Convos every other week and then in between we can kind of catch up on news and anything else that's going on in pop culture. So I think that'll be a good balance of news and then discussion as well. So that's the plan, to alternate between the two. And I'm very happy to be talking to my friend Theresa Shim today about The Farewell. She has a Master's in Rhetoric and Media, but she's also really interested in digital media and popular culture. She's also really engaged in media discourse, short stories and writing fan fiction. She's an excellent writer. You should check out her work on Medium. She's written some really insightful pieces on there. And she and I have met a couple times at the pop culture conference, so I've seen her present. She's currently a law student living in New York City, but originally from Greater Toronto area in Canada. And she was kind enough to jump on a call with me to talk about this movie, because as you'll hear, her experience immigrating from Singapore to Canada when she was young, really parallels that of Billie, the main character in the film. And I'm also really interested in her thoughts on the status of Asian representation in the media these days because, historically speaking, there's been almost no Asian representation, and that's something that we'll talk about. So stay tuned and I hope you enjoy this conversation. Thank you so much, Theresa, for being my very first guest on the podcast!
Theresa Shim:This is exciting!
SJ:I know, right? For me too. Thank you so much. I saw The Farewell a couple of weeks ago and I loved it. And then I'm on Tumblr one day and I'm scrolling through and I see you posted something about it and I was like,"Oh my God, Theresa posted something that wasn't Pitch Perfect! We need to talk about this."[laughs]
Theresa Shim:Oh my God.[laughs]
SJ:I knew you were the person to talk to. So I'm really happy that we can have this conversation. The character in the film, Billie, she immigrates to America when she's six years old and you had a really similar experience, right? You moved to Canada with your parents when you were five, is that right?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, when I was five. I've been in North America for about 20 years now and that's crazy to think about, but when I was five, you don't really think about the magnitude of moving like that, you know?
SJ:Yeah. I mean, do you remember how it seemed to you at the time, being five years old? Like did it just seem overwhelming and crazy, or how did you make sense of it at the time?
Theresa Shim:Well, I think leading up to that... So five, I mean that's not a lot of life at all, but I had traveled a little with my parents and I knew conceptually about planes and stuff, but the idea of just not coming back and it's just me and my parents over here in Toronto at least...and my grandparents and my aunts and uncles and my cousins, they're all in Singapore. So it was really weird to just not see them as often. And I guess that experience was just... I wouldn't say"traumatizing" or anything, but it was very like, as a five-year-old, you're not really sure how you deal with that.
SJ:Yeah, for sure. So most of your family is still back in Singapore now? Even still?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, most of them are there. They've come to visit. My mom has a brother, so my uncle lives in California, so that's nice when we go to Los Angeles and visit. But yeah, pretty much everyone else though lives in Singapore.
SJ:Okay, wow. Do you get to go back to visit, yourself, often or not really?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, like every few years. I would say my parents go more often than I because it's more flexible, their work schedules, and I have school so they can kind of just take time off for. I can't really just take that time off school whenever they choose to go. But I think I'm going this Christmas with my parents, so that should be fun.
SJ:Oh awesome. Good. So do you remember like what assimilation was like? Do you remember fighting it or wanting to fit in? Like how do you remember that?
Theresa Shim:I'm so glad you asked that. I think about this a lot, especially recently. There's been so much east Asian media, which we'll talk about, I'm sure. But basically when I moved, I think assimilation is actually a really good word for it. I'm speaking from the Canadian-Asian experience, which is... I don't know how different it is from the American-Asian, but I think it's pretty much the same at this point. But I guess like having accents... So the thing about Singapore is that it is an English-speaking country. So I could speak English, but obviously I had an accent and I remember this vividly and I feel like I'm not making this up because it has stuck with me for 20 years now. But someone asking me,"Oh, what language do you speak?" And me just responding like,"English," right back at them."English!" But then they'd be like,"But what do you actually speak?"
SJ:Oh God.
Theresa Shim:And I don't know, it's weird because my parents speak Chinese, my grandparents speak Chinese. I can understand Chinese, but I don't really speak it anymore because there isn't really room to practice. But yeah, that was really weird. I think it's just like a misconception. Like there were students who didn't know where Singapore was. They just thought it was a part of China. That was actually like a huge thing that like kind of happened...
SJ:Really?
Theresa Shim:Yeah. Oh, okay. This story always gets people. So, it was second or third grade and I had like March break. So I had gone back to Singapore with my family. And during that time, I guess like my parents weren't so worried about like the strictness of education. I was like seven. So we extended our stay for another week or so past the March break period, and this was around the time that the SARS outbreak happened.
SJ:Oh, no...
Theresa Shim:But see, okay- Singapore is not part of China. We have established that.
SJ:Right.
Theresa Shim:But that was not known to other students in my class. So one student kind of told her babysitter that we had extended our stay because we were affected by the SARS outbreak because we were in China.
SJ:Oh, Jesus.
Theresa Shim:And I was pulled into the principal's office...
SJ:Really??
Theresa Shim:Yeah. Yeah, it was a big thing. And I remember thinking,"But Singapore is not part of China...right?" Looking at my mother like,"What?" Like,"I'm right, right?"
SJ:So if these people just knew their geography better, this wouldn't have been an issue.
Theresa Shim:I don't know. Like, even today, like when you say Asia-- like not you, but the"you" in general-- when people say Asia, I feel like they're still thinking of like China, Korea and Japan. Even though it expands like a huge breadth of other Asian populations. Which is crazy.
SJ:It's massive. Yeah, exactly. Wow. I mean, so not only are you five years old in a new country, but people don't even know, when you tell them,"I came from Singapore," they don't even really know where that is...?
Theresa Shim:No. God. Did that make it hard to make friends? I wouldn't even categorize anyone as"mean," it's just the kind of ignorance that only children can have. And looking back, I was friends with a lot of people. Like, I made friends. I guess I kind of also was interested in changing certain things about myself. So this is where the assimilation kind of comes in. Like, my mom at the time, she decided to not work when we first moved to Canada instead of working. Like she was staying home to take care of me. So I got a lot of home-cooked meals for lunch,and as adults now we both know how great that would be....
SJ:Yeah! But oh, no...did you get teased during lunch for having your typical meals, like home-cooked food...?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, because it's different, right? It's like rice with maybe some kind of like steamed chicken or fish. The fish was usually a bit more like poignant in its smell, but it was just being so conscious of that. Imagine receiving that kind of multilayered lunch. And then as a child, I remember asking my mom,"Can you just make me a sandwich?"
SJ:Aw.
Theresa Shim:Yeah. Looking back, I'm like,"Gimme that food now!"
SJ:Yeah, for sure. In hindsight you're like,"Oh, what an awesome thing to have had," but you couldn't really appreciate it, I'm sure, at the time, just because kids are mean and judgmental. Oh, man. Wow. And you mentioned something about Saturday school...
Theresa Shim:Oh, yes.
SJ:Is that cultural classes?
Theresa Shim:Yeah.
SJ:Okay. Could you kind of explain that a little bit? I wasn't sure what that was.
Theresa Shim:Yeah. So, my parents are very big believers in rounding out the child. So I took piano lessons, soccer, swimming, and then Saturday school. So Saturday school was from 9:00 AM to like 12:30 PM or 1:00 PM. And I would just sit there in a classroom that was rented out from like the local high school or something, and learn Chinese, supposedly.
SJ:Supposedly? Was it not really...informative?
Theresa Shim:[laughs] I did mention that I don't really speak Chinese.
SJ:[laughs] Right, right.
Theresa Shim:But you'd learn how to write characters and interact with other people like students your age. So it was usually divided by age group and other students your age who would also be learning Chinese at the same level you were, which(for me) was next-to-nothing, because they had levels. So there was intermediate, advanced and then like fluent native speaker. So I was pretty much at the beginner level. My parents tried to put me in the intermediate class and it scared me so much. I just said,"No," like that is a big part of what happened with assimilation, because I spent so much time just trying to learn English, or what I believed to be appropriate English speaking level, right? So that I just didn't really talk to my parents in Chinese like I could have.
SJ:Okay. So you kind of made the conscious choice to speak English as much as possible so that you could fit?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, I definitely think I did. And it's something I regret a lot now. Like, I should've just pushed myself, but I was a kid and I was just like,"Just let me learn English." And my parents honestly were of the same mindset. Like my mom used to buy me workbooks, like vocabulary workbooks and stuff.
SJ:For English?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, for English. So in first grade and second grade, I remember this horrendously purple big textbook that was like sixth grade level vocabulary and my mom was like,"Okay, read this and you will be good for the next few years."
SJ:Good job, mom.
Theresa Shim:Yeah, good job, mom! Thanks, mom.
SJ:Do you remember, were you really resistant to the Saturday classes when you were a kid or did you just not really care...? Was any of it interesting to you at the time?
Theresa Shim:I think somewhere in between not caring and being resistant, because to me, the scope of my worldview was not so broad as it is now, and I didn't see the value in that, because I was like,"We're living in an English-speaking country." Like, I focused so much more on taking French for the bilingual part of being in Canada.
SJ:Oh you did? Really?
Theresa Shim:Yeah, I took extended French programs and stuff all through high school, and then studied more in college. I studied French so hard and just kind of neglected the Mandarin, the Chinese side. And I guess I just hated the Saturday part of it. Like, that's the other half- What child wants to wake up at 9:00 AM on a Saturday?
SJ:Yeah. That'd be pretty tough to convince a kid that,"Oh, this is going to be worth it. You're going to have fun. Go to school on a Saturday after you've gone to school five days in a row." Oh, man. So yeah, I don't blame you. So I guess getting into the film a little bit, how did you first hear about this movie? Did you just kind of stumble upon it or had it been on your radar?
Theresa Shim:It's hard to say, because I definitely watched the trailer on Youtube, but how I got there is either through just watching a bunch of other cast videos for Crazy Rich Asians and then seeing a related video, or it was probably something recommended to me on Facebook. Like, I didn't know to actively seek it out. But when I saw the trailer then I knew to keep it on my radar at that point. But yeah, it's the sort of thing just kind of creeps up on you. You don't realize that a movie like this is being made until you're really invested, I guess, in looking out for this kind of material.
SJ:Yeah. Well, and I'm kind of trying to figure out if it was well advertised, because I know there were definitely trailers for it attached to something like Crazy Rich Asians or... I think I saw a trailer for it because I go to this independent film festival type movie theater here, and it's like local and they're really into indie and foreign films. And that's how I heard about it. But I wasn't sure on a broader scale if it was actually being widely announced.
Theresa Shim:No, I don't think it was at all. No. Like, even what you said was so telling, like, you go to an indie-specific theater to hear about it. And A24(that's the distributor, right?), I typically think they don't have a lot of wide releases in general.
SJ:I think you're right.
Theresa Shim:But yeah, you'd have to have an interest in that kind of thing to really learn about it, I guess.
SJ:I think that's probably true. I mean, thank God that Awkwafina is the star, because I think that drew a lot of people because we had her in the bigger Hollywood movies like Oceans 8 and Crazy Rich Asians. So I think she had kind of been on a lot of people's radar, fortunately. That was a big draw. And I don't know if you saw this, but the box office numbers...this movie actually beat out Avengers: Endgame for highest per-screen box office revenue. Because when it first opened, it was only playing on four screens, but every screening was packed. And so it was actually making, on a per-screen revenue basis, it was making more than Avengers. So I think even though it was on super limited release, I think that's really telling that when people did find out about this movie, they flocked to it and they found those four theaters that it was playing at. I think that was really cool.
Theresa Shim:I remember opening weekend, I went to The Angelica in the lower East Side area, and Awkwafina was there after to do a Q and A.
SJ:Oh, that's cool! And you got to see her?
Theresa Shim:Yeah. And she was so friendly and she talked about a lot of similar things that we're talking about now. She considers herself pretty Americanized, for Asian standards, and she said she really had to teach herself how to kind of speak the dialect. But she said that she felt like it was a really important story to tell.
SJ:That's awesome. Did you get a chance to ask her a question personally, or...?
Theresa Shim:No, I was brainstorming questions because it was kind of last minute, like me and my friend actually thought she wasn't going to be there. We thought we were at the wrong showing actually. But then she kind of surprised us at the end and we were just like,"Oh, okay! She's just here I guess." But yeah, a lot of people asked the kinds of questions that I would have wanted to ask. A lot had to do with representation or breaking into the industry as a woman of color. Those kinds of questions. And I think her responses were pretty honest. Like, she considers herself fairly lucky but she also says there is a lot of value in hard work, and unfortunately that is a lot of what people, especially people of color, will have to rely on.
SJ:Yeah. I was watching and reading some interviews with her and also the director Lulu Wang and they were both talking about how...Well, obviously Lulu Wang, this movie is based on a real story from her life. Like, this is something that she went through with her Nai Nai, and Billie's character is actually based on her. She also immigrated to the U.S. when she was five or six. So this was very, very much Lulu Wang's story. But then Awkwafina was talking about how it resonated with her for a number of reasons, but a big one was that connection to Nai Nai, because she was raised by her grandmother. And so she was just talking about how it meant a lot to her to play this role that was really similar to her in that way. I thought that was pretty cool. So they both have this really strong personal connection to the material, which I think definitely comes through in the movie. The movie is just so genuine. I've seen it twice now and it was just so affecting both times I saw it.
Theresa Shim:Yeah.
SJ:What were some standout scenes to you? What were some of your favorite moments or scenes that really resonated with you in particular?
Theresa Shim:Just one of my favorite scenes- I remember it was a really tense scene.... So Billie and her mom and her dad go back to the hotel room, and her dad kind of passes out on the bed and Billie and her mom had this really emotional, tense conversation. And I think that really resonated with me, among other things of course, because it was talking about moving to America and sacrifices and the kind of familial sacrifices that come into play, because that's a conversation that I can remember having with my own parents. Not in the context of maybe a family member dying, but just discussing like,"Do you know how lucky you are that we moved here?" And based on interactions with some of my other friends who are also immigrants, that is a lot of the rhetoric that parents kind of use. And it's really interesting because maybe to someone else that kind of sounds threatening or making you feel bad on a guilty level, but it really isn't. And Billie and her mom kind of understand each other on that level because the life that she lives in America is supposedly much better than what she would have lived if she had stayed in China, because of all the opportunities. Now, I can't remember whether the scene that follows or the scene that comes before, but when they're having this kind of like...
SJ:Yeah, as you were saying that I was thinking of that dinner table conversation, in which they're doing exactly what you're talking about- Kind of trading barbs and going back and forth as to like, is China better or is America better, and in what ways? And if you send your child to America, supposedly for the better opportunities, are you going to regret it on some level? It's almost like they were implying that it was kind of selling out or something.
Theresa Shim:Yeah. That's like, not exactly hostile, but I felt the kind of passive-aggressiveness from that scene that you just mentioned. But that is a conversation that I've talked about with my cousins, because their education is so different from mine, like the Singapore style of education is so different. And okay, so my parents jumped on this opportunity to move to Canada, but would[my cousins] have done similarly? I don't think so, personally. I think they're very content with how they were raised in Singapore. And I am obviously very content with how I was raised in Canada, but in terms of being Asian or what that identity means to me, a lot of it feels like I can't ever compare it to what they have, which is being able to speak Mandarin and being able to see my grandmother more often and all that. It's really interesting and I don't know...It's like two separate worlds, even though we're all existing on the same planet.
SJ:Do you remember that movie'Sliding Doors' with Gwyneth Paltrow? Where it's like, if she makes the train, her life would have turned out completely different, and if she misses the train, it's the opposite.
Theresa Shim:You're the second person who has mentioned this movie to me.
SJ:Nooo!
Theresa Shim:[laughs]
SJ:I really don't mean to tout anything with Gwyneth Paltrow, but that's what came to mind just then. It was a'Sliding Doors' moment.
Theresa Shim:No, that's definitely the whole what-if situation. Yeah.
SJ:And so you said you've never actually been in that specific situation with a family member who is diagnosed with something and the family keeps it from them, have you?
Theresa Shim:No. My maternal grandmother- I never met her because she passed away before I was born- but my maternal grandfather, it wasn't too long after we had moved to Canada that he got pretty sick and he passed away and we ended up going back to Singapore for the funeral. But like he smoked, so it was a known thing that this would probably happen. And it doesn't alleviate the pain even though we knew it was going to happen, but also no one was hiding it from him. He knew it was going to happen. And my paternal grandfather, that was more recenlty, like within the past few years, but the thing is, I can't even remember how he died. But it was sudden. So it wasn't an expected thing either. So I don't even know if this is something we would do personally, but it's weird because even though it didn't happen to me, I remember when I watched the trailer and they talk about how a person's life in the East is part of a whole, and that made so much sense to me, and I just accepted this concept of The Farewell before even realizing that it was based on Lulu Wang's own story.
SJ:And when you're talking about how your grandfather died, you said soon after you moved to Canada, and he was a smoker- That's so similar to Billie in the movie too. Like, her grandfather was a smoker. They're literally lighting a cigarette to put on his grave for him in the afterlife.[laughs] And then the other scene between[Billie] and her mother where they're talking in- I think it's a hotel room or something- and she's talking about how hard it was, when her grandfather died and no one really told her that he was sick and then every time they would go back to China, he just wasn't there anymore. And it was like he disappeared off the face of the earth and she had zero closure. She didn't know it was coming. And that was so painful to hear. So I mean I'm glad that you at least had that closure and were able to go back for the funeral, because my heart just went out to her in that scene. That would be so rough losing someone so far away and then not being able to say goodbye.
Theresa Shim:Yeah, this is exactly what I thought about- my immediate after-thought when I finished the movie. Because like Billie, when I was born, my grandmother like took care of me when my parents worked. So that was the thing- I'm the oldest grandchild, so she would take care of me all day. And my mom told me- I don't remember this, but- when we first moved, my grandmother cried. And also before we moved, my mom had already stopped working for about a year when she was like," I'm missing out on my child's growth and stuff." So she was going to take care of me more. But my grandmother also cried. So I think there's just this connection that you have with your grandparents. I don't know what it is, but it's such a common thing that happens in Asian families. That's why when they were talking about being raised by their grandmother, I was like,"Whoa. Same."
SJ:Right. It's like, ANOTHER similarity you have with this character! I'm amazed and I love it. Well, you said when you watched the trailer, even though you haven't had this experience with a family member of keeping a diagnosis from them, you could totally see how that would happen. And that makes sense to you, right? I think a lot of people from Western culture when they saw the trailer, they were like,"Oh, what a funny gimmick!" You know? It makes no sense to them. They're like,"This can't possibly be a thing that happens." Billie herself is really struggling with this idea too, of hiding a diagnosis. She's like,"Shouldn't we tell her? What if she wants to say goodbye?" And the doctor is like,"Well, it's the family's choice, but most families in China would choose not to tell her." And I was like, wow. Even for me in that moment, I was like,"Really?? Most families?" Like, this is really a common thing. But the other thing I think that the film does that's so smart is even from the very first scene, it establishes that there are certain good lies, right?"Good lies" that we tell people we love in order to protect them from a painful truth. And even in that first scene when Billie's talking to Nai Nai on the phone, her grandmother is lying to her about where she is and Billie's lying to her about wearing a hat and all these other things. And when people ask her about the fellowship, she says she doesn't know yet even though she does. And so it's kind of saying,"Okay Westerners, maybe this premise seems shocking to you, but think about all the lies you tell the people you love on a day-to-day basis to protect them because you care about them. Is it really so different?" I thought that was a really cool set-up.
Theresa Shim:That's such a great point. This is so weird. I didn't think about this, but now I just like running through the whole movie in my mind. But you're totally right. Like the way they just built these small lies on top of each other. I mean, Billie's little lie... I don't even know what to call it if you don't call it a lie... Concealing of information of not getting the fellowship throughout the whole movie until she tells her grandmother at the end. I wouldn't even say it's anticlimactic how her grandmother reacts, it's just how I expected. Obviously it doesn't matter to her. She just cares about her wellbeing.
SJ:Yeah. And that got me thinking like if the shoe was on the other foot in that scene...because I think we're sort of expecting that Billie wears her heart on her sleeve, she's very emotional, so I think we're kind of waiting the whole movie for her to crack and for her to let the truth slip. And that scene could have been"The Reveal," but instead it was a different reveal. It was Billie revealing her own secret. And you kind of wonder if she had told her Nai Nai the truth how she would have reacted to that. But I feel like it probably would've been a similar kind of reaction almost. I mean this is kind of related, but I always felt throughout the whole movie that surely Nai Nai has to know on some level, because her sister actually mentions that she's gone through this before. She did this whole same thing to her husband when he was dying, she kept his diagnosis from him. So you think surely she recognizes this pattern, and everyone around her is acting so suspiciously, you would think that she has to know on some level. But do you think that's true, and even does it matter?
Theresa Shim:Yes, I think she knew on some level and yes, I think it matters that she knew because it goes back to the whole"a person's life is part of a whole." At least, that's what it felt like to me. She probably knows or suspects to some degree based on what she went through with Billie's grandfather, but if it is the culture that the family ought to keep the truth from her for the whole and the benefit of the family and for herself obviously then the reverse is probably true that she doesn't need to address this truth for the benefit of the whole and to just be with her family for this wedding.
SJ:Yeah, I think you're probably right about that. Whether they know or not, everyone's just kind of agreeing to take this opportunity to spend time with each other.
Theresa Shim:Oh yeah, and at the wedding when Billie's cousin has that complete breakdown! I'm like,"She didn't see that?? She definitely saw that."
SJ:I know! Everyone's worried about Billie breaking down, but this kid kept crying in the middle of meals and during the wedding...
Theresa Shim:He was actually losing it.
SJ:I thought he was going to give it away for sure, poor guy. And that kind of leads me to my next sort of observation: I wanted to see what your experience was in the particular screening you are at, especially if that was the one where Awkwafina was there and probably drew maybe a different crowd...But I know when I saw it here at my little indie film theater, it was packed though. It was like on a Tuesday night, it was packed. I've never seen the theater that full in the middle of the week, honestly, which I guess is proof of that highest per-screen revenue. But the film does seem to walk this really fine tight-rope between comedy and tragedy, and the scenes that made me cry, other people in the audience were laughing hysterically at, but then kind of vice versa. It seemed like no one really knew how to react to what was going on, because the premise is both kind of ridiculous- like when they're all sitting around the table and the cousin's trying not to cry and the grandmother is like,"What's wrong with your face? It isn't right."- You know, it's so funny and ridiculous that they're keeping this a secret and she thinks it's something else. But then it's also so sad, because they are having to keep all their emotions in check and not let her know that this might be the last time they see her. But I'm wondering two things: Did you see the film as more of a comedy or a tragedy, and also what was the reaction in the theater that you were at?
Theresa Shim:I think it was a drama featuring comedy, if that makes sense. I wouldn't say the comedy was a focus, but it happened. Which I think is quite realistic. Like, in situations like this, it is a somber time, but everyone's kind of just still human. So things happen that are funny and things happen that are sad. But the climate was pretty uniform, I would say. I don't think there was a moment like one that you spoke of where people might have laughed at a moment that was probably intended to be more serious, but I don't know if that's the demographic... Like, the demographic was pretty East Asian with occasional white people, African-American...But it was primarily East Asian and I think it probably had to do with maybe people knowing that Awkwafina was doing that screening.
SJ:Yeah, I feel like it's probably going to be one of those things that varies from screening to screening ans geographic location too. But I was just curious how it was in yours. But you know, now that I think about it there were a lot of Asian people in the audience[at my screening]. They really seemed to be showing up for Awkwafina, and I heard a lot of Mandarin being spoken behind me, so I think it was also a pretty diverse crowd. But I'm wondering if those people were more coming from the same perspective as Billie and so they found it a little more like... Well, I don't know actually if you would find it more humorous or more sad, honestly, if you're coming from a more Western perspective, even though you're an Asian person. I don't know what kind of difference that would make, but I'm just thinking about this now.
Theresa Shim:I think you're right that there is a difference. What that difference is varies with the type of media. Like, I'm thinking about'Bao', that short film. Because people who weren't really familiar with East Asian culture and what it means to be a parent and letting your child go kind of thought the concept was weird. Like, she ate her child?? That that was their focus.
SJ:[laughs] Right.
Theresa Shim:But it was more like eating all the emotions a mother has in regards to letting her child grow up and leave the home and stuff, and dumpling-making, my family didn't really do that, but just cooking with your family is such a traditional thing to do. So I think sometimes imagery might be lost or concepts might be lost on people, but that's why we just need more media like this.
SJ:Yeah, for sure. I was going to actually ask you if you had seen that short[film]. Obviously, you have. That's a beautiful little short called'Bao'. That was...did it win the Oscar? I think it did.
Theresa Shim:Yes, it did.
SJ:Okay, awesome. Yay. There's definitely been more Asian representation in mainstream media in the past few years, but it has taken a long time. Someone was saying when'Crazy Rich Asians' came out, there hadn't been an Asian cast in a blockbuster movie since the'Joy Luck Club' in 1999...[tone] Quick edit here: That film was actually released in 1993, which just makes the situation even that much worse.[tone]. So we went like 20 years without seeing any decent kind of Asian representation on the big screen. And then we've had a couple movies like'Crazy Rich Asians', like'Always Be My Maybe' on Netflix. And you don't have to speak to any of those specifically, but I always like to ask people, because representation is so important to me and I think to everyone really when they think about it- Like, there's nothing that compares to the feeling of seeing yourself on screen or seeing something that really deeply resonates with you, especially if you're not a straight, cis, white male, like n either of us are. And it's harder to find yourself represented when you're not that. So I always like to ask people, especially women and people of color, w hat was the first time that you can remember seeing yourself represented on screen? Or what were some really important pieces of culture that you can remember really having a deep affect on you?[pause] If any, maybe there haven't been any...
Theresa Shim:I don't know. I've been so used to seeing East Asian characters as periphery characters, vehicles to move the plot along. I can't remember what I was reading, but like, Cho Chang from Harry Potter. She's just this character who happens to be Asian, but nothing about her really is Asian except her name. You know what I mean? Like, you had an opportunity to name a character and you named her Cho Chang.
SJ:In typical JK Rowling fashion.
Theresa Shim:[laughs] That's again a whole other thing.
SJ:Definitely. We can get into that another time.
Theresa Shim:Yeah. Harry Potter was the first English novel that I read when I moved to Canada.
SJ:Oh, really?
Theresa Shim:So girl, I got you.
SJ:[laughs] Yeah.
Theresa Shim:But yeah, I dunno, like these periphery characters... And also what it means to be seen and my own understanding of that. I don't think I really thought about that, but to be fair, my mom and my dad and I and my aunt and other family members, we used to watch a lot of those Korean dramas, Taiwanese dramas, Chinese dramas. So I was used to seeing these kinds of stories elsewhere, even if I couldn't access it in mainstream media. But'Crazy Rich Asians' last year was probably the closest I can... Even though the r om-c om's goal is to sell the distraction more than anything, it was really interesting to see a character like Rachel Chu who is self-professed"Americanized" and not as"Asian" as she would like. But that kind of story we don't see a lot of.
SJ:No, I know, for sure. I mean, it's definitely getting a little better, but God, has it taken forever. What do you think about the live-action Mulan that's coming up? Hey, they got an Asian cast! They did the bare minimum!
Theresa Shim:I know, the Surprised Pikachu Face- that was my face.
SJ:[laughs] Oh yeah, that they didn't cast like Matt Damon again. Or Scarlett--
Theresa Shim:Or Scarlett Johannson. Oh my gosh.
SJ:[laugh] I'm going to talk about her in literally every single episode because she's so problematic.
Theresa Shim:Do you know that quote from Gemma Chan, from'Crazy Rich Asians'? She played Astrid.
SJ:Uh, which quote? I mean, I know who she is...
Theresa Shim:Someone asked her'If someone could play you in a movie about your life, who would you be?' And she said,'Scarlett Johannsson. Haha, just kidding.'
SJ:Oh, snap![laughs]
Theresa Shim:But basically it was a direct reference and she said'Haha, just kidding'...
SJ:But not really!
Theresa Shim:[laughs] Yeah, but not really!
SJ:That's amazing. My love for her just went up a couple of notches, and I already really liked her. Oh my God. That's great.
Theresa Shim:But, Mulan. Okay, Mulan...I think it looks amazing and beautiful, and I know there's a lot of debate because they removed the dragon--
SJ:[gasps] He's not in it at all? Like, there's no character like that?
Theresa Shim:No, apparently he's not, because that was never in the original telling of this story...
SJ:Are you telling me there was no miniature talking dragon in the real-life story of Mulan??
Theresa Shim:[laughs]. No!
SJ:You just destroyed all my childhood fantasies. How dare you next. Next you're gonna tell me that Santa isn't real.
Theresa Shim:I know, I'm so sorry.
SJ:All right, well, you know, I think I can live without... I mean, how would they even do that? They're doing a live-action. They're trying to make it serious and dramatic, obviously. I don't think a talking dragon would really mesh with that, so I can see where they're going. Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, the trailer looks beautiful and it's got a female director. I believe it's Niki Caro, who did'Whale Rider', which is a beautiful movie. So I'm really hopeful that's going to be good.
Theresa Shim:Yeah, I am too. You know how'Mulan' had music and just iconic moments in the old animated movie? So, I don't know how all of that is going to translate, or if Disney even intends to translate that at all.
SJ:Yeah. Is it even going to be a musical? Do we know if there's actually any music in it?
Theresa Shim:It's hard to say, because the trailer that was released didn't make it seem like it was a musical.
SJ:But the music for the animated is so iconic! Oh man, it added so much. But you know, it's a live- action, so it'll bring different things to the table.
Theresa Shim:It's live-action in a different way than what Disney tried to do with'Lion King'.
SJ:I was just going to say... I haven't seen it because I've heard it's just an absolute soulless, unnecessary remake of a beloved movie. I'm like, I have no interest in that. So yeah, if it's better than'The Lion King', I'd be happy with that.
Theresa Shim:I was reading a few articles that definitely seemed to imply that Disney is trying to make this more appropriate for Chinese audiences. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but...
SJ:Who knows what Disney's standards are, honestly.
Theresa Shim:Yeah, exactly. And everyone knows Disney is just doing everything to keep their copyright on things, you know. So all these remakes, reiterations, just to keep their grasp on the intellectual property.
SJ:They seem to just be snatching things up left and right. But I really hope they'll pay more attention to their future live-action remakes, since they're apparently gonna keep doing them. So let's just hope they're better in the future. All right, well, I will let you go. I know you are a very busy law student. Thank you so much for talking to me. This has been awesome.
Theresa Shim:Oh my gosh, this was so much fun. I will see you on Tumblr.
SJ:Yeah, sounds good. Awesome. Thanks, girl!
Theresa Shim:Yeah, no problem!
SJ:'The Farewell' is still playing in select theaters across the country. Please do yourself a favor and go check it out. Huge thanks to Theresa Shim for talking with me this week. You can follow her on Twitter@tizzleshizzle or on Tumblr@isthemusictoblame, or check out her writing on Medium. I hope you'll join us next time when we are going to be talking about the Emmy nominations. I promise, for real this time. And stay tuned for our next'Culture Convo'. I'm really excited about it. It's going to be about something that is very near and dear to my heart. My favorite thing in this world: Jessica Jones. We're going to be having a two if not three part conversation about that. We have all the thoughts, all the feels, so please join us for that. In the meantime, get all your visual content at popculty.blog, or by following me@popculty on Twitter. This episode was produced by yours truly, SJ Palm. Cover art by@wxdmnd.'The Farewell' official trailer courtesy of A24. The music you heard was composed by Alex Weston. Do check out his score for'The Farewell', it's stunning. Until next time, stay critical, support women directors, and always demand representation.
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