A Spooky & Gay Crossover! Part 1: Hereditary

It's a two-part Halloween crossover event! Carver Casey of the Spooky & Gay with Carver & Jay podcast joins me to talk personal histories of horror and whether the films of A24 auteur darling Ari Aster are all they're cracked up to be. In this episode, we turn our queer lens on Hereditary - Transmasculine allegory or transphobic trash? Listen to find out where we land, and join us next week for Part 2, when we tackle his follow-up folk horror classic Midsommar!

Article discussed: Trans Horror Stories and Society's Fear of the Transmasculine Body - Sasha Geffen (Them.)

Women-Directed Horror Recs:

• Raw (2016) dir. Julia Ducournau
• Good Manners/As Boas Maneiras (2017) dir. Juliana Rojas & Marco Dutra
• A Girl Walks Home Alone At Night (2014) dir. Ana Lily Amirpour
• Carmilla (2019) dir. Emily Harris
• Fear Street trilogy (2021) dir. Leigh Janiak [ Netflix]
• The Haunting of Bly Manor (2020) [Netflix]
• Lovecraft Country (2020) [HBO Max]
• Brand New Cherry Flavor (2021) [Netflix]
• Evil (2019 - ) [Paramount+]

Follow Carver on Twitter and TikTok.

Spooky synth outro music by Ross Bugden.

Chapters

• 0:00 It's a crossover episode! Introducing your hosts, Carver and SJ
• 3:06 Our personal histories with horror
• 11:31 From Shelley's 'Frankenstein' to Romero's 'Night of the Living Dead': Horror has always been an allegory
• 13:23 There is a horror movie for everyone
• 14:41 Non-binary representation in 'Seed of Chucky'
• 19:41 Ari Aster: privilege and auteurship
• 21:32 Wait, why are we talking about a straight white guy on this show?
• 23:42 Hereditary (2018)
• 26:24 Is 'Hereditary' a transmasculine allegory?
• 30:43 A history of transphobia in the horror genre
• 36:34 Ableism in 'Hereditary'
• 41:37 Sooo many white guys: Transphobia, sexism, and racism in 'Hereditary'
• 45:57 Mental health representation in 'Hereditary'
• 48:02 Something we did like: One bad mother
• 51:32 Outro: Join us for Part 2, coming soon!

Transcript

SJ: 0:00

[sings] Spooky and gay, spooky and gay, spooky and gay, with Carver and SJ! [normal voice] Hey, Carver!

Carver Casey: 0:07

[laughs] Hi! How are you, SJ?

SJ: 0:09

I'm super excited to do this crossover episode. I don't think either of us have done one on our respective shows, right?

Carver Casey: 0:19

Absolutely, this is our first crossover.

SJ: 0:21

And also, I was just realizing, this will be the first episode that's, like, all trans. And that makes me really happy. [both laugh] Listeners, you are in for a treat, because you will hear no cis-splaining in this episode.

Carver Casey: 0:37

It's a guarantee.

SJ: 0:38

It's just going to be us awesome non-binary folks talking about horror movies! Which is not something that I typically talk about on my podcast, although you certainly do on yours. Do you want to introduce yourself to the Popculty audience?

Carver Casey: 0:55

I'm Carver Casey, I am one half of the Spooky and Gay with Carver and Jay podcast, where ALL we talk about is horror. [laughs]

SJ: 1:05

It's great. I love the title.

Carver Casey: 1:06

Thank you, thank you.

SJ: 1:08

And I really enjoy the podcast. I would say it's gotten me interested in horror again, honestly. Horror is not really a genre that I pay a lot of attention to. It's in the periphery, and I'll go see, you know, your Get Out, your Jennifer's Body, love that kind of stuff. But it has to really permeate the mainstream, or what people are talking about, for me to really want to see a horror movie. But yeah, I would say your podcast kind of got me interested in it again and looking at it from a different perspective. So that's been fun.

Carver Casey: 1:39

I'm so glad to hear that. I think that's definitely one of the things that Jay and I wanted to do coming into this. Queer folks are often excluded from these communities. And there is a thriving and interesting and vibrant queer horror community that I love sharing with other people. I was gonna say, we have also been loving your podcast. I caught up on the Black Widow episode, which threw me on a whole Florence Pugh kick--

SJ: 2:08

[excitedly] Oh!

Carver Casey: 2:09

I had my roommate watching Fighting With My Family--

SJ: 2:13

Yas!

Carver Casey: 2:13

We're on a whole professional wrestling kick at my house now. [laughs]

SJ: 2:16

All right! And I am responsible... [sighs dramatically] I feel honored. That is awesome to hear, because I am very much on my own Florence Pugh kick, which is actually why I really wanted to talk about Midsommar. Like 80% of it is because of Florence Pugh. [both laugh] So I'm really glad we're on the same page there--

Carver Casey: 2:37

Yes.

SJ: 2:38

--because I am going to geek out about her so much when we get to Midsommar.

Carver Casey: 2:42

Glad to hear it.

SJ: 2:44

So for Spooky and Gay listeners, I am SJ. I host the Popculty Podcast, which is pop culture with a 'y', both in spelling and in mission, where we highlight the stories being told by and about women, LGBTQ+ folks, people of color and those with disabilities. I thought we could just start off by talking a little bit more about our own personal relationships with horror. Do you want to tell us about your horror journey? How did you get into it, what's appealing to you, what's your history with it?

Carver Casey: 3:20

I come from a horror family. From as long as I can remember-- Like, the first movie that I have any memory of seeing any part of is Rocky Horror Picture Show. When Frank-N-Furter pulls the tablecloth off, and you know that they're eating Eddie for dinner, that's literally the first image of film that I have a memory of. I would be the kid sitting on the couch with a blanket pulled over my head, crying, so afraid of what I could see through my fingers on the TV, which was literally next to nothing. And as I got older, and I had the opportunity to sort of catch these films and see myself in them, as a queer person, as a closeted, egg-uncracked trans person, seeing people facing odds and being really beat down upon by these forces that were out of their control, I could see myself overcoming them, because I saw these characters overcoming these unimaginable things. You know, all I have to do is go to high school; this person is fighting a dream demon! Like, I don't have to do that. [laughs]

SJ: 4:30

I love that. I love that horror films were like an escape for you. And also, I think the way you put it last time we talked was, "an exercise in being brave."

Carver Casey: 4:40

It absolutely is. You know, you see these things, and you're volunteering to have something larger than life, something oppressive, and interact with it. You can turn it off at any time. You don't have to interact, you can stop, you can not put it on. And so, by putting it on, sitting through, confronting this thing that you're afraid of, it gives you the wherewithal to be able to do that when you're encountering things you're afraid of in your real life.

SJ: 5:07

That's such an interesting way to look at it. You literally have control over it-- you have*remote control*--

Carver Casey: 5:12

Mm-hmm!

SJ: 5:12

--over a horror movie. And that can help you kind of prime yourself for those experiences in real life, which yeah, as queer people, as trans people, we are much more likely to encounter in the real world. I love that framing.

Carver Casey: 5:27

I know you said that this is usually a genre that you don't break into very often. Was there ever any, like, standouts for you, throughout your life? And maybe some of those that you've revisited that you're like, 'Oh, this has a whole new meaning to me now'?

SJ: 5:42

Yeah, actually, it's funny you ask, because just this past week, in thinking about our conversation and preparing for it, I was just thinking about my history with horror... Like I say, yeah, I didn't grow up with it. The extent of my exposure to the genre was one time, one of my uncle's put on a Chucky movie and scared the shit out of me, and I had nightmares forever, because I was too young.[laughs] I know you really love Chucky, and that's actually a really great, apparently very queer TV series now. Love that evolution for Chucky. But, I mean, that just terrified me as a child, and I really avoided it for many years. I would go long periods throughout my life without watching any horror movies. I just never really felt compelled to scare myself like that. And I already have an anxiety disorder. Like, honestly, my brain is scary enough, and I just didn't feel the need to, like, add onto that shit pile. [laughs drily] And so yeah, I just kind of avoided it for a while. But over the years, I have dipped my toe in more and more, and I've found that I don't scare easily at all-- it takes a lot to scare me-- but I tend to go for, like, the socially conscious stuff, or horror comedy, that kind of thing. If I'm going to dip my toe in it at all, it kind of has to have a purpose. I hate slash-y, gory, just for gore's sake, kind of stuff.

Carver Casey: 7:04

Yeah.

SJ: 7:05

The first time I had a real appreciation for horror was in college, I audited a couple of film courses. One of them was looking at horror as it was used in various social justice movements, which was really, really interesting. And that was the first time that I had an actual appreciation for horror. Before that, I just thought it was base, not for me, just blood and guts, and didn't have much meaning, right? But in this class, we looked at Night of the Living Dead, you know, and how that is such a great race allegory. And we looked at Freaks-- that movie from, I want to say, the 1930s-- which looks at how people with disabilities were looked at by society. And then we did a unit on gender and sexuality. And the movie we watched for that was High Tension. Do you know this movie?

Carver Casey: 7:57

Yeah, I know High Tension. I haven't watched it yet--

SJ: 7:59

[excitedly] Ohhh!

Carver Casey: 7:59

--I'm saving it for a very special day for myself. But I do know the plot, I know what happens. Spoilers don't ruin a movie for me ever.

SJ: 8:07

For listeners who don't know, this is a 2003 French slasher movie. It kind of made waves at the time it came out. It's pretty well known...

Carver Casey: 8:16

It defines a genre- French Extremity.

SJ: 8:18

There you go. So, you know how it ends? Okay, I'm not going to fully spoil it for our listeners, just in case they want to go in blind. But when I watched this movie for the first time, in that college class, I wasn't sure what I was watching, and I was not beginning to interrogate my gender at that point. So it kind of went over my head as just a slasher movie. I rewatched it last week, and it really hit me in a way that it didn't hit me on my first watch. And I feel like I appreciate it much better knowing the ending, because everything clicks into place. And also watching it from a trans perspective, it's just-- For me, High Tension is probably... I mean, you asked what horror movies have ever resonated with me? I would say, this, for me, is like, the pinnacle of queer and transmasculine allegory and exploration. And the whole time I was rewatching it this past week, I was just like, 'Oh my god.' Baby me had no idea, but now, I'm just so glad this movie exists. And I do think that knowing how it ends will actually give you a better experience of it. So I'm really excited for you to watch this eventually, one day. I think it's a really interesting movie... It is gory-- It's a slasher movie, there's some fucked up stuff in it, for sure. But wow, I...

Carver Casey: 9:43

We nearly covered it last Valentine's Day on Spooky & Gay...

SJ: 9:46

Ugh!

Carver Casey: 9:46

This close.

SJ: 9:48

You gotta let me know when you watch it, and when you do that episode, 'cause, uh...

Carver Casey: 9:56

Would love to hear what you have to say on it.

SJ: 9:58

Maybe that could be our next crossover episode. [laughs]

Carver Casey: 10:00

Absolutely.[laughs]

SJ: 10:01

That'd be so good! That'd be so good. Yeah, so that's my horror journey. And that's the big movie that comes to mind for me.

Carver Casey: 10:11

I find it really interesting that that particular movie is one that got to you, just knowing that it is such a violent, gory movie, that many people did write off as being just a blood-and-guts movie. Like, that's a lot of what people said about it. And so I love that it was able to speak to your own personal experience in a way that was really...touching, right?

SJ: 10:32

Yeah, it surprised me, to be honest. Because it's the exact opposite of the kind of movie that I look for. I hate violent deaths and cruelty just to be, you know, a shock factor. I hate that kind of stuff, and this definitely falls within that category. But-- the main character, the whole time, is wrestling with her gender identity and sexuality in a way that makes that violence necessary. You know, so I say, I don't appreciate horror for horror's sake, necessarily. But I like when there's some greater value or meaning, and for me, I found that this time around. And I can totally see how a lot of people-- like, I would say, straight, cis people-- probably would just watch this movie and be like, 'I have no idea, it's just a fun slasher movie.' But I think for queer viewers, it means a whole lot more. And I'm just, like, grateful it's out there.

Carver Casey: 11:31

Absolutely. When I was in college, I had an art history class where the teacher said something along the lines of, 'you can see what each generation is afraid of by watching their horror movies.' Horror has always been an allegory, just like you mentioned, Night of the Living Dead-- The day that movie was wrapped, George Romero had the film in the trunk of his car, and over the radio, he heard that Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. And he just knew what he had, and what they were ready for. And many people weren't ready for it - He got a lot of criticism for casting the actors he did. And he always said that [that actor] was the best person who showed up. This role wasn't written for a man of color, and almost all of the lines were rewritten by that actor. He was like, "I'm not going to play someone who's uneducated. I'm not going to play someone who's vulgar. Because I'm neither of those things. And I'm not going to represent myself this way." And the reason that that character has so much power is because these people were able to come together and use the little bit of platform they had to get their message across. And I love that that's always been happening.

SJ: 12:36

Exactly. Horror has always been an allegory, you know, not just from the beginning of cinema, but really, from the beginning of the genre itself. If we go back to one of the original examples of horror literature, Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein as an allegory about her own grief over losing her child. And I think that's what we miss, if we just write the whole genre off as, "It's slashers, it's blood and gore, it's haunted houses. That's not for me." But I really would encourage people to give it a second look, and to realize that throughout history, the horror genre, just like any type of film or television, has its purpose in the current cultural moment.

Carver Casey: 13:23

Yeah. I don't think that the horror genre is for every person, but I think there is a horror movie that every person would resonate with.

SJ: 13:30

Sure.

Carver Casey: 13:31

And that may be something like Get Out or Midsommar, or these things that are able-- like you said-- to really punch through the cultural zeitgeist. But it may also be... Well, a movie that I personally really love is All Cheerleaders Die.

SJ: 13:47

I've heard of it...

Carver Casey: 13:48

It's very silly, but it's just like, a girl gets revenge for a friend's assault, and then her and all the people she associates with are murdered and brought back by her ex-lover, to really get revenge on the people who deserve it. It's campy, it's silly, it's like the horror version of But I'm A Cheerleader. I just feel that from it so much.

SJ: 14:14

Interesting.

Carver Casey: 14:15

It's just a little low-budget, most people haven't seen outside of this community, movie. And there's one for everybody. [laughs]

SJ: 14:23

I agree. I agree. And I think Get Out kind of proved that to a lot of people. Like, everyone saw Get Out, even people who would normally never go to see a horror movie in the theaters. Because it had something to say, and it said it very effectively. Yeah, I think there is a horror movie for everyone, whether they know it or not. I think that's a good take. Would you say [All Cheerleaders Die] is sort of your queer horror touchstone, or is there something else that really resonates with you?

Carver Casey: 14:49

Seed of Chucky is a movie that I saw the week it came out, waited, anticipated as a teenager. I was so ready for it, and I didn't understand for years why people hated it. I thought it was funny, it has John Waters in it, it's disgusting potty humor, like all the other things that were coming out at that time. But there's also this character who is struggling with their gender- They're a doll, they don't have anything, anatomically, to give them a direction on gender to go, so all they have is the ability to speculate. And when they're asked to put themselves in one category or the other, they say, "Can I be both?" And a doll says, "Well, some people..." And that tiny line in this terrible, low-budget, filmed-in-Ukraine-for-tax-purposes movie just lived in my head forever. Just that "Well, some people" line stuck with me. Every time I was like, 'Well, I don't feel right in this body...' 'Well, some people don't feel at home in their bodies.' And so, anytime I had this question, or I wanted to invalidate myself, I just had this little thing that could pop in my head and be like, 'Well, you know, some people do feel this way.'

SJ: 16:13

Yeah.

Carver Casey: 16:13

And it lived with me forever. And I'm so glad that people are finally giving it that credit, because I know, at least I hadn't been exposed to a genderqueer representation before that. And yeah-- it just so happens to be a doll whose name is Shithead. [laughs]

SJ: 16:32

Hey, sometimes it comes from the most unexpected places.

Carver Casey: 16:35

Yeah! [laughs]

SJ: 16:35

We never know where representation will find us.[both laugh] That's great. I can totally see that. I can see how that would really stay with you, and just give you that nugget of validation for what you were feeling. Because so few movies at the time would have even had that tiny line. I can't think of any movies or TV that even acknowledged a nonbinary existence, prior to, I would say, a couple of years ago, honestly.

Carver Casey: 17:04

Absolutely. And you know, this was, I think, 2008/2009... Maybe 2007?

SJ: 17:11

Wow.

Carver Casey: 17:11

Pre-2010, for sure.

SJ: 17:13

I mean, that's early. That's early in the game.

Carver Casey: 17:15

Absolutely. And I think that can be wholly attributed to the fact that the creator of that story is a gay man, is someone who is in the community. And he saw an opportunity to bring just a tiny bit of information, even if it's mostly played as a joke. And I believe he had one of the first out gay characters in a horror movie, in his movie that came out right before that, Bride of Chucky.

SJ: 17:44

Yeah, the person who's creating the film or show that we're seeing is so important. And that's why I talk about a lot on my show, who is behind the thing that we're watching, right? Because contrary to what fucking Matt Damon told Effie Brown on that season of Project Greenlight... [Carver chuckles]...diversity is not something that just happens in front of the camera; It also happens behind the camera. The person who is telling the story brings their own biases, their own prejudices, their own perspectives and lived experiences, to create the thing they're showing you. So everything is filtered through them, and when we're only getting to see things filtered through heteronormativity and cisgender people and men, that's so narrow! So it does mean something-- it means a lot-- when you have anyone from outside that perspective who gets to tell a story. And yeah, I think for sure the fact that he's a gay man had a huge amount to do with that - He was embedded within the community, he had probably met people who were nonbinary, and then he put that into the story, and look how much it helped you. Right? Like, that's an incredible cycle. That's incredible. And it never would have happened if he was not a gay man with this slightly different life experience to offer.

Carver Casey: 19:06

Absolutely. And I know in hindsight now, it wasn't just me. There were so many people who hung onto that representation for years, that now it is a cult classic. It gets played every Pride month at some dingy theater.

SJ: 19:20

Wow.

Carver Casey: 19:21

It seems like a low-budget genre film, but every low-budget genre film has been the thing that kept somebody from taking a step off the bridge, you know?

SJ: 19:32

Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of...

Carver Casey: 19:36

Taking a step?[chuckles]

SJ: 19:38

Well...There is that.[chuckles] There is that, and we will get there. But no, I was gonna say, speaking of filmmakers, and the importance of who is telling the story-- I have to confess that I feel a little guilty for choosing the movies that we are about to talk about today. [Carver laughs] It feels so off-brand for me. I never talk about straight white guys on my show - I'm not interested, they do nothing for me, their stories don't connect with me. And to be honest, Ari Aster is not an exception. I don't particularly care for him as a person, from all the research and interviews I've read. He just seems like just another pretentious fucking white guy. His success story is still very much a privileged one- He basically came out of nowhere and just *zooped* right to the top. And he just gets to make whatever the fuck he wants, handed a blank check to write and direct his vanity projects... I can't even think of a female director who has ever gotten that chance. I mean, he's on his third movie in a row, within the span of four years, that he is writing and directing, with studios saying,"Make whatever you want! You're Ari Aster, you're the auteur!" I can't think of a single female filmmaker, especially within the horror genre, who has gotten a chance to do that, can you?

Carver Casey: 20:58

Not really, no. Besides the woman who directed the Fear Street movies...

SJ: 21:04

Okay.

Carver Casey: 21:05

She got to do all three, and she did those films back-to-back-to-back. But that was last year, you know? And they did not want her to direct all three - They actually only wanted her to direct two of those. And the male director they had for the third one wasn't available. So they let her do all three.

SJ: 21:26

[scoffs] So when it does happen, women are only the second choice, never the first.

Carver Casey: 21:30

Yeah. [laughs drily]

SJ: 21:32

Yeah, so, you know, I definitely come to this discussion a little frustrated with myself for brainstorming an entire list of incredible women-directed horror movies, and then, at the last minute, going with a basic dude. But-- You know, it's an opportunity to do the flip-side of what I normally do. Normally, I highlight women directors and writers, and celebrate all the good that they do. The flip-side of that coin is to critique the things that we don't like so much. I have reasons for choosing these movies. Midsommar was the one that I first came to you and was like, "Do you want to talk about this?" And I have reasons for that, which we will get into. And we're definitely going to be offering some criticisms. But yeah, I just wanted to preface this discussion with that acknowledgement, that this is very not in my typical wheelhouse.

Carver Casey: 22:24

Well, that's great, because if there's one thing I'm known for, it is making A24 fans mad, so...[chuckles]

SJ: 22:30

Oh! Perfect. This is going to be that. [laughs]

Carver Casey: 22:33

Excellent. Something that we do on our show is we talk about horror movies in general. What makes them queer horror, and what makes us queer horror, is that we're queer people, and we're filtering our opinions through our lens. So we talk about lots of movies that most straight audiences are going to go to and not see most of the things we're seeing. But we can filter that through the experience of someone who has lived a different life than the movie was marketed for, than it was made for, and really flesh out what everyone else is seeing about it.

SJ: 23:11

Absolutely. That is totally what I would like to do. Because everyone has seen these movies-- Mainstream audiences have seen these movies, and they have already come away with whatever opinions and experiences they've formed. But this really is, like you say, an opportunity for us to share our-- I think, going to be very different-- experiences of both of these movies, coming at it through a trans and queer lens. I think it is a valuable thing to do, to offer people a completely different take than the one they probably have. With that said, let's go ahead and dive in. So Ari Aster's first feature film, Hereditary, was released in 2018. Probably everyone listening to this has seen it, if they're going to see it. I don't really feel the need to do too much of a summary, other than maybe just a brief synopsis... I think you're probably better at those than I am, so I'll let you take this.

Carver Casey: 24:07

A family dealing with the grief of losing their eldest matriarch soon compound that grief with the loss of the granddaughter Annie--

SJ: 24:21

Oh, wait-- Charlie, right?

Carver Casey: 24:23

Oh! Charlie, yes. Annie is the mother. And so the film is really learning the truth behind the lies-- the lives-- of both the matriarch and Charlie. And maybe that involves some cult-y stuff.[laughs]

SJ: 24:40

Yes. [laughs] Definitely involves some cult-y stuff. That was good! That was a really good synopsis.

Carver Casey: 24:45

Thank you!

SJ: 24:46

We could print that. [Carver laughs heartily] So that is Hereditary. Trigger warnings for this movie, I would say, are substantial - Suicide, decapitation, and self-harm? Those are the big ones I can think of... Can you think of any others?

Carver Casey: 25:02

If you are especially sensitive to family dysfunction, this would be a very hard watch.

SJ: 25:09

True. So, how do you feel about Hereditary?

Carver Casey: 25:13

I think calling Ari Aster an auteur is completely valid. These are incredibly well-made movies. The shots are intentional, the lighting is intentional. There are these wonderful elements that I think introduced a lot of people who are used to going to the movies and just having a good time, to sitting down and thinking more critically about what they're watching. And that is the credit that I will give him. [laughs]

SJ: 25:41

Sure. I'll cosign, yeah.

Carver Casey: 25:44

But the thing with these films is that I sometimes feel like Ari Aster has his message, and then the movies have their own.

SJ: 25:55

Yes.

Carver Casey: 25:56

And looking at them independently, it's kind of like if you're looking at a piece of artwork, like a painting or a physical, unchanging artwork. And then there's a three-page artist statement towards the side of it. You may read all of that and get the full intention behind it, or you may sit there and look at it, and feel what you feel about it. So that's what I'm doing with Hereditary. I had shared an article with you about people seeing themselves in Charlie.

SJ: 26:29

Yeah.

Carver Casey: 26:29

And... it's very easy to see Charlie's character as a trans allegory. But I think that it contributes to one of the ways that trans people are depicted in horror. There are two main ways, in my opinion-- As either the villain and the monster and the thing you're supposed to be afraid of. And then there is the fear of the transition, the body changing, and what it takes to want to change a body. And I think that, in many ways, it is easier for trans people to see themselves in those narratives, but I think they're equally as harmful, because it's showing the actualization of a trans person living in the body they want to, as a horror. And I don't love that parallel, as far as representation goes.

SJ: 27:25

I... actually, am with you 100% on this. And I'm really relieved, because when you sent me that article... I don't know, I just kind of assumed that you really liked Hereditary, and I didn't want to have to fight you on this! [both laugh] But we are 100% on the same page. The article we're referencing, I will put in the show notes. It's an article from Them...

Carver Casey: 27:48

Yeah, Them.us.

SJ: 27:50

They're a queer online outlet that I really like(usually). So they had an article written by Sasha Geffen, on how Hereditary is this trans masculine allegory. So I read that article, and I was like,"Huh. Do I need to rewatch Hereditary? Because I don't remember any of this." I mean, I watched Hereditary when it first came out, and honestly, it did nothing for me. I think it's very well-made - Like you say, the shots are very intentional. But I rewatched it after I read the article, and then I read the article again, and I was just like, "I see what you're saying, but I just have to blatantly disagree." I think, like you say, it's easy to see the trans allegory, but I hate the implications, right? Because I do think it plays into what you're talking about, and even what Geffen references themselves - This history, particularly within the horror genre, of having villains and monsters be trans people. We see this in Psycho, we see this in Silence of the Lambs with Buffalo Bill, right? There's this long history, and I just feel like this movie is playing into that. I don't think it's offering anything different or new. So many of the things Geffen has to say about the trans masc experience are relatable - Their criticism of the Atlantic piece, that they're comparing Hereditary to, is spot-on. They're basically taking apart ROGD, the "rapid onset gender dysphoria" nonsense. So I think a lot of things Geffen is saying are totally valid. This one paragraph-- I'll just read it, because wow, I have a lot of feelings about it. [both laugh] They write, "Hereditary's transition allegory involves not only the violent death of a girl, but also the torture and eventual evacuation of a cis male body. Charlie does not merely change, but steals something that belongs to a man. That Charlie's transition requires so much physical violence speaks to a lingering anxiety among many cis people that transition is, at best, a form of mutilation, and at worst, a kind of death - a sloughing of one body in exchange for a new, different one. A girl dies so a boy can live as a boy. The impulse to transition is often interpreted as a form of self-destructive madness. And, in the case of trans masculine people, it can be read as a flocking to power - a magnetic pull away from the subjugated gender toward the one in control." Whoo! [both chuckle] There's a lot to unpack there. I think that reading of how cis people view the trans masculine transition is, unfortunately, more or less accurate-- as wrongheaded and reductive and harmful as that view is. You know, that's not the truth. That's not in any way our lived reality. But at the same time, I think the movie is just reinforcing those super transphobic cisgender views. I don't think it's challenging them at all.

Carver Casey: 30:43

I absolutely agree. A movie that keeps coming to mind for me, as far as trans representation with this, is another movie where the character themselves never say they're trans. I don't know if you're familiar with Sleepaway Camp--

SJ: 30:58

No...

Carver Casey: 30:58

--but it's a very controversial movie. It's a slasher - Definitely not your thing. But to me, it's a queer classic. It is about a little girl who goes to summer camp, and all the people who bully her, or try to do bad things to her, start dying. It's sort of a whodunnit, and then at the end of the movie... And I want to say, this came out in the 1980s, 1970s... It's very old.

SJ: 31:23

Okay.

Carver Casey: 31:23

And the crux of the movie is that... Gosh, this is hard to explain in a way trying not to be spoiler-y...

SJ: 31:32

It's okay. I would say, spoil away if it takes the spoil to make the point.

Carver Casey: 31:38

So, in Sleepaway Camp, the ending of the movie is when you find out who has done it, it's Angela. And Angela is on the beach with the head of the boy who has been flirting with her on her lap. She stands up, covered in blood, his decapitated head falls from her lap, and she has a penis.

SJ: 31:57

Hm!

Carver Casey: 31:58

And many, many people-- And it's a completely valid argument, to read this as transphobic.

SJ: 32:03

Sure.

Carver Casey: 32:03

And I think the intentions around it were transphobic. But I saw this movie first when I was coming into my gender identity, and personally-- Angela never says that she's trans, and isn't given the choice to live as a woman. She and her twin sister were in an accident, where [her sister] died, and she was put in a house where the matriarch said, "I already have a boy. Angela is such a beautiful name." And so, I read that movie, at least, as the horrors of being forced to live as a gender you don't identify as, and the fear of keeping up with that...lie, you know?

SJ: 32:49

Mm-hmm.

Carver Casey: 32:49

And so, when I think about the way I have to twist my mind around Charlie being trans... Charlie never says that she is trans.

SJ: 32:59

Right.

Carver Casey: 32:59

Charlie didn't put Paimon in their body. It was all choices made by other people. And so I have a really hard time warping that idea into Charlie being trans. And when I do, I don't feel good about it.

SJ: 33:16

Agreed. Absolutely agreed. Yeah, that's really the same way I feel. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that Charlie is trans, to be honest. Because the thing that [Geffen] quotes as proof of that is when Charlie says, "Grandma wanted me to be a boy." Well, okay, that's not saying that she wants to be a boy. But this reviewer kind of takes that and runs with it as'Charlie feels trans,' and I just don't necessarily see that for her. And then also, throughout this piece, they keep conflating and interchanging the names 'Charlie' and 'Paimon'. Paimon is the demon that is trying to possess a male body and doesn't want Charlie's female body, and so eventually-- Yeah, we're gonna spoil this movie. [both laugh] Y'all have seen it. So, Paimon is the demon, but Geffen keeps conflating Charlie with Paimon. And not only is that confusing, and I'm like, "Well, okay, so is the demon trans, or is Charlie?" But if you do conflate Charlie with Paimon, then you are*literally* saying that this trans person is a demon, which-- Harken back to our previous argument! [both laugh] Trans people don't need to be vilified or demonized on screen any more than they already have been, historically, throughout film and throughout the entire genre of horror. And I just feel like, kind of any way you slice it, if you want to read a trans allegory into this movie, I hate what it has to say. I think it's just playing into that really tired, damaging transphobic trope.

Carver Casey: 34:49

Absolutely, I agree with you.

SJ: 34:51

And I think what would have made it feel different, what would have made me able to see Geffen's argument, is if we had, at any point, been invited or encouraged to empathize with Charlie. But we are never allowed to do that. I mean, she is weird, and creepy, and evil, and snipping the heads off birds for the whole 30 minutes that she's on screen, and then she is gruesomely decapitated. We are never offered the chance to empathize or connect with her.

Carver Casey: 35:23

I think, as well, not only are we the audience not ever empathizing with Charlie, but none of the other characters seem to be either. Every relationship-- besides possibly the relationship with the grandmother, which we're never shown-- is very much at arm's length. It's the mother using her as a pawn to keep the son from drinking, but not considering, 'Does a 13-year-old want to be at a party with drinking and teenagers and unfamiliarity?' None of the characters have empathy for her until she's gone, and then they want to talk about how hurt they are. But they weren't giving her the time and attention when she was there.

SJ: 36:06

Right. So how is that doing anything other than further othering trans people, if we are to infer that Charlie is trans, you know what I mean?

Carver Casey: 36:17

Especially the way the movie was marketed, where it was only this character and only the odd sounds that she makes. They hinged so much of the interest of this movie on this character that it seemed, frankly, uninterested in.

SJ: 36:33

Very much so. And there's also possibly an element of ableism going on here... I wasn't able to fully confirm this one way or another-- I wondered if you might have some behind-the-scenes info that I don't. But Milly Shapiro, who plays Charlie, has a rare disability called cleidocranial dysplasia, which gives her kind of a unique look. And I'm wondering if there's a sort of ableism that came into the casting of this character. Because another thing that Ari Aster tends to do, for no reason and kind of randomly, he will insert these characters with some sort of facial deformity. And it doesn't seem to be for any purpose other than to unsettle us. It's just like an image of what he thinks is the grotesque, to lend more of a sinister, unsettling atmosphere. I don't know if you have any more background information, but the film seems to use lighting, makeup (or lack thereof), camera angles, and directing of her posture to emphasize her facial differences. Because if you see pictures of Milly Shapiro, they're much more emphasized in this film than they are in real life. There's even possibly some prosthetics going on... If that is the case, I find that pretty troubling.

Carver Casey: 37:53

So, the information I have is that I follow Milly Shapiro on TikTok...

SJ: 37:57

Oh, nice!

Carver Casey: 37:57

And she has said that they did use some facial prosthetics to accentuate it.

SJ: 38:03

Oh, boy... Well, that's not great. To be clear, it's not a problem to cast a person with a disability, or who has facial disfigurements or burns, or anything like that. It's a problem to cast them and then enhance those differences, in order to make them appear more"monstrous." Charlie, as you said, was very much marketed as the creepy, evil entity in this movie. So that's why it's problematic.

Carver Casey: 38:35

Yes.

SJ: 38:36

I'm so glad you have the insider scoop!

Carver Casey: 38:38

She also actually spoke *today* about how because of Hereditary, she was bullied mercilessly throughout the rest of her high school career, because she was "the ugly girl" from Hereditary.

SJ: 38:54

Oh my god!

Carver Casey: 38:56

As far as I know, she does some acting now, but she's focusing more on her music. I actually believe they use they/them pronouns.

SJ: 39:01

Oh, okay.

Carver Casey: 39:02

I can't remember, but I believe maybe both... Certainly 'they' somewhere in there.

SJ: 39:07

Awesome. Okay, thanks for the heads-up. I just Googled it, and it says, "Milly Shapiro identifies as a lesbian and uses she/they pronouns." Okay, cool. Good to know. Wow, I had no idea about that background, but that's horrible to hear. And that sort of confirms my worst suspicions, that they did use prosthetics, and that had the exact real-world consequences for Milly Shapiro as one would expect. Again, to me, that's ableism, and that is Ari Aster, who now has this pattern-- because it shows up in Midsommar too-- of using these images of people with deformities or disabilities, or, in Midsommar... Well, actually, in both Hereditary and Midsommar, the aging female body he also thinks is disgusting, apparently.

Carver Casey: 39:58

[with distaste] Yeah.

SJ: 39:58

You know, it just keeps showing up. And I really have a problem with what he thinks is"the grotesque," and the way that he uses it, and the way he enhances it for maximum shock value. Especially with this new information, I really hate the way that character was portrayed, and how that disability was played up, because that's just another way of othering them. And it really does not lend any credence to this Them article-- you know, to their thesis.

Carver Casey: 40:27

Yeah. [chuckles]

SJ: 40:29

Wow. That just sort of cements it for me. That character, to me, is a combination of transphobia and ableism.

Carver Casey: 40:35

Yeah.

SJ: 40:36

[sighs] I don't like it at all.

Carver Casey: 40:38

I think when you think about what we were saying earlier, about horror being a mirror of what people are afraid of at the time-- 2018 is the year after [with disgust] *the man* was elected... [SJ gives a humorless chuckle] ...And there was a constant bombardment against trans people and universal health care. And I think there is a way to see this movie as, yes, it is about grief and family, but it's also, in a larger cultural context, about being afraid of what the youth are going to accomplish, and what the youth's needs are. Because it is very much the older generation against the younger generation, and then the younger generation growing up and using those same tools to attack their children.

SJ: 41:32

That's a really interesting lens to look at it through. I hadn't really thought about that. I just have to say one last thing about this article. The last line of it is,[dramatically] "Aster's fable understands just how deep gender goes." [regular voice] And I just have to say, absolutely not! As someone who has listened to and read more interviews with this man than I wish I had,[both laugh] Ari Aster is not a man who has put any time or thought into his own gender. This is not someone who set out to make a trans allegory, I'm sorry. I think it's basically an accident, and I don't think he put any sincere thought or empathy into this movie as a trans allegory. I don't think he is someone who understands gender at all. I mean, this is the man who once said, "My method of writing women is just to put myself in them." [Carver chortles] [SJ, incredulous] Are you kidding me? Like, this is not a man who knows how to write any gender other than his own. And I just think Geffen is giving him way too much credit. To me, this film is the embodiment of really the basest transphobic fears of the male cishet mind. And I think to give him more credit than that is just-- overly generous, to say the least.

Carver Casey: 42:55

This is my second watch of both these movies, and this time around, I'm like,"These movies just *barely* pass the Bechdel Test."

SJ: 43:03

Yeah. [scoff/laugh]

Carver Casey: 43:04

And I think they do because Ari Aster knew they had to.

SJ: 43:07

Right.

Carver Casey: 43:07

Like, I'm sure there is an early draft of this where they didn't, and he was like, "I gotta give this person speaking lines, so they can talk to each other!"

SJ: 43:14

A hundred percent! I guarantee you the first draft of both of these movies was genuine trash. And I guarantee you that he got some notes and had to rewrite the hell out of it. But even so, my other huge problem with this movie is that it is*so* white. There is not a single character of color in this movie. And I can't remember the last time I saw that in film. Like, this is 2018-- This is just a couple of years ago, and there was no consideration that we are only showing white people on screen here? And if you look behind the camera, it's the same shit. I went on IMDb, and I'm combing through the profile pics, and it's just white guy after white guy. So that, to me, is a real problem. That's a huge red flag. Because what movie, post-2000, is this white?? Truly!

Carver Casey: 44:11

And I think when you think about race in Midsommar, it becomes even more problematic.

SJ: 44:16

Whoo! Oh yes, indeed. [both laugh] I can't wait to talk about that.

Carver Casey: 44:21

Especially the world that Hereditary is in... Were there even people of color in the support group meeting that she went to?

SJ: 44:28

Maybe, but they didn't have any lines.

Carver Casey: 44:30

Exactly.

SJ: 44:31

If they exist, they're just so background that it didn't even register.

Carver Casey: 44:37

Obviously I don't know Ari Aster-- I can't say this [with any certainty]. But I think it really reads as someone who is like, "I'm just not going to put people of color in this, because if I do it wrong, I'm gonna get in trouble."

SJ: 44:48

[exasperated sigh] Yeah.

Carver Casey: 44:48

And it's like, do the work to put a good representation out there, instead of just being like,[whiny voice] "I'm scared I'm gonna get in trouble, so I'm just not gonna." [laughs]

SJ: 44:59

It really does read that way. And you can tell he probably got called out a little bit for the whiteness of this movie, because, oh, there's one Black person in Midsommar! So we got that box checked.[exasperated sigh]

Carver Casey: 45:11

Yeah.

SJ: 45:12

No, it's really glaring. And this movie was co-edited by a woman, Jennifer Lame, but other than that, it's all-male below the line. So this makes a lot of sense, all the issues I have with this movie... There is a direct line between what shows up on the screen and what is happening behind the scenes. And I really believe that when you have a more diverse lineup below the line, behind the camera, that comes through in front of the camera. But here, it's just homogeny going both ways, and I think that's a big part of what makes this movie so blah for me, and even problematic. Because you don't have *anyone* with a slightly different perspective, who's contributing. And then I also have to critique-- because we just came off on Popculty doing this mental health series, and we're talking about depictions of mental illness in TV and film... Guess which genre has the worst track record with this, by the way? [laughs]

Carver Casey: 46:13

Mm-hmm.

SJ: 46:14

Yeah, so we talked about that. And this movie just perpetuates a lot of the harmful tropes you see over and over in media. The support group is not shown to be effective in doing anything other than facilitating Anne Dowd's character to weasel her way into Annie's life; Annie tells the support group that she has a history of mental illness in her family, like DID and schizophrenia, but then we learn in the end that that was actually attempted or successful demonic possession. That's not helpful for people with mental illness to see, and it also further others and vilifies people with mental illness by conflating demonic possession with things like schizophrenia. That's the exact type of thing that I talked to Megan in that mental health episode about, that we don't want to see anymore.

Carver Casey: 47:03

That's such a major thing in horror, specifically in the Exorcist/possession sub-genre, which is a genre that I really enjoy, usually. But it's something that I can't enjoy without really noticing the way that it vilifies these people. There's the one side of the coin that sees them as evil, or that they have evil inside of them. And there's the side of the coin that I tend to be on, where oftentimes what is being done to them is awful and beyond their control, and maybe inside of them, but isn't necessarily part of them. And as someone who has struggled with mental health, I relate often to those characters, but I can do that and still see how completely damning that could be for people who aren't seeing it from my perspective.

SJ: 47:56

Horror has a lot to make up for-- I'll just say that-- when it comes to its mental health portrayal.

Carver Casey: 48:01

Mm-hmm.

SJ: 48:02

To wrap things up with this movie on a slightly more positive note, I will say that Toni Collette's dinner table rant-- That is pretty iconic, for a reason. [both laugh]

Carver Casey: 48:12

Yes.

SJ: 48:13

I think it also addresses the guilt and the blame that happens within families, when one member is responsible in some way for another's death, or feels responsible. Ooh, it really encapsulates that blame/guilt dynamic that she has with her son. You do feel that tension throughout the film, and I think that is really effective.

Peter: 48:34

[mumbling] Just seems like there might be something you want to say--

Father: 48:40

[warningly] Peter...

Annie: 48:41

[calmly] Like what? I mean, why would I want to say something, so I could watch you sneer at me?

Peter: 48:47

[more clearly] *Sneer* at you? I don't ever sneer at y--

Annie: 48:49

[chuckles drily] O-ho, sweetie, you don't have to, you get your point across.

Peter: 48:52

Okay, so, fine. Say what you want to say, then.

Father: 48:54

[more firmly] Peter.

Annie: 48:54

I don't want to say anything. I've tried saying--

Peter: 48:58

[slightly louder] Okay, so, try again. Release yourself.

Annie: 49:00

Oh, release *you*, you mean?

Peter: 49:02

[shouting] Yeah, fine! Release me, just say it. Just FUCKING say it!

Annie: 49:05

[fists slam on table] DON'T YOU SWEAR AT ME, YOU LITTLE SHIT! [chair clatters] Don't you EVER raise your voice at me, I AM YOUR MOTHER. Do you understand? All I do is worry and slave and defend you. And all I get back is that[screeching] FUCKING FACE ON YOUR FACE! So full of disdain and resentment, and always so annoyed. Well, now your sister is dead! [calmer, more sympathetic] And I know you miss her. And I know it was an accident. And I know you're in pain. And I wish I could take that away for you. [cruelly] I wish I could shield you from the knowledge that you did what you did. [shrieking] But your sister is dead!! She's gone forever![sobbing] And what a waste... If it could have maybe brought us together, or *something*![accusingly] If you could have just said, "I'm sorry," or faced up to what happened, maybe then we could do something with this.[practically spitting] But you can't take responsibilty for anything!! So now *I* can't accept. And I CAN'T forgive. Because... [catches breath] Because NOOOBODY admits ANYTHING THEY'VE DONE!!!

Carver Casey: 50:16

Peter wants to blame himself-- He does already. And Annie wants to blame Peter, but she won't say it. She's not willing to take responsibility for anything that she's a part of, in this movie. And that is not how mothers are normally depicted. Women are usually expected to have everything together and be planning for every emotional need of the men in their lives. And that is a role that Annie has refused to take on. Which is refreshing in some ways. [laughs]

SJ: 50:49

Totally. I'm all here for female characters getting to be more complicated and nuanced and messy, and maybe unlikable, than we typically are used to seeing them. I'm here for mothers blatantly expressing to their children that they never wanted to have them. Because that's the complete opposite of the really idealized version of motherhood we so often get. And to me, this is a more honest one-- Like, a lot of mothers resent their children at some point, a lot of mothers experience postpartum depression. And that's just not something we acknowledge or talk about. So anytime that is hinted at or addressed head-on, I'm all for it. I love a complicated mother. [laughs] You know? I love a complicated female character.

Carver Casey: 51:30

Absolutely.

SJ: 51:39

[over spooky synth music] That's it for this week. But don't worry, Carver and I still have plenty more horror to discuss. Stay tuned for part two next week, when we talk about Midsommar - The Ari Aster film we maybe, actually, kind of liked? Be sure to follow The Popculty Podcast and Spooky & Gay with Carver & Jay to find out. In the meantime, Happy Halloween and Dia de los Muertos! I hope you're watching some good scary movies. We've left our favorite women-directed horror flicks in the shownotes, so have fun with those if you need some recs. Is there a horror movie that has really resonated with you? We'd love to hear about it. Tweet me@popculty and Carver@spooky_carver. You can follow me on Tumblr at popculty.blog, and Carver on TikTok@acamp.slasher. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave either or both shows a review on Apple Podcasts. You can also support The Popculty Podcast at patreon.com/popculty. Until next time-- Support women directors, stay critical, and demand representation. [music concludes]

Matt Damon: 52:57

When we're talking about diversity, you do it in the casting of the film, not in the casting of the show.

Effie Brown: 53:03

Hoo! Wow. Okay.